[DL]

I didn't use the collar on this, but have it in my mind that I am going to use indirect pressure for blatant dig backs. All the casts were verbal backs which seemed literal to me. I was doing verbal because it is a fairly long water blind for me.

After veering left. He starts veering right to the water which is offline. It isn't blatant if that is what he is trained to do, and I don't know if he truly knows a straight up cast requires a course correction. The true line enters the water further up the shore and is square.

Do you switch to non literal casts to make it obvious? Do you keep the literal casts, and do the indirect pressure anyway? Do you make a mental note of it, and start doing similar blinds in the future up closer to the water? Do I put a hay bale jump on the true line to give him something to aim for? or do I repeat in a week or two and require the correct line?

https://youtu.be/QWmsOIu6320

 

[captainjack]

Why would you give a correction for a dog wanting to get in water? Bad idea.

Casting 101 says that verbal drives the dog back, and silent gets change in direction. Also bad idea to give verbal here.

No to abandoning literal casting in training as well.

Run advanced water tune up drills to get dog comfortable running by water and when you do run by early water, make sure it's to get in late water. Like run by an early cove to get in bigger water. Never just run by water and not get in later.

 

[Justin Allen]

Tune up drills, stay out of pressure. It's ine thing to correct an advanced dog for cast refusals when trying to dive in early, not sure if your dogs level but I would not use pressure at all for that. Even with the most advanced dogs, pressure in that situation would be absolute last resort in most cases.

 

[Daren Galloway]

If you're not sure if he knows what a straight up back means, you probably shouldn't be runnin a blind like this.

 

[Justin Allen]

It sounds like the dog is sucking to the water. I'm sure the dog can take a back cast. Plenty of dogs will do what this dog is described as doing. It's not a casting issue but more of an I'm afraid not to get in the water issue. Lots of dogs struggle with this. Tune up drills will let the dog get more comfortable with not getting in immediately.

QUOTE=Daren Galloway;1518737]If you're not sure if he knows what a straight up back means, you probably shouldn't be runnin a blind like this.[/QUOTE]

 

[DL]

There is a similar blind if I step over to the right 40 yards to the right side of the water. Let's say it could be part of a tune up drill and is the best place for the concept. How would I handle it then? Thanks for the comments. He is sucking to the water. It is also an odd kind of blind for him, but it was a cheating single from last year, and it is somewhat similar to another one I just did without the late water entry. I have had a hard time with the two tune drills I've tried. Most of the tune up drills that I have seen people do involved some pressure. I'm not suggesting pressure. I'm just trying to sort things out.

 

[Tobias]

What I see is a dog that is thinking. He is thinking about what you want to him to do.
First he veers left (with the hayfield 'rows') - I would not have given a verbal back. He heads to water.
Then you stop him and give him another verbal left back (again, I would not give a verbal) - in his mind he looks, he sees water. Dad must want me to go to water... Not a bad thing - we train for it, right? - he scallops (sort of - I see it more as a direction change after trying to guess at what you want) wanting to get wet again. I would not use any pressure for this on the first 'failed' cast. I would use attrition if the dog repeated (bring dog back to original location, recast) - Like Justin said - it is a difficult thing to get a good correction for a dog that wants to get wet.
Then he gets one last cast and takes it all the way to the blind.

I know it is not easy to cast and take video - but it looks like perhaps your casting is a little sloppy? A couple of times you cast immediately after he sits. Let him sit a second or two before casting. Gives you time to think and him too.

Overall a very nice job, IMO. How far was it? those gopro vids make them look farther than they are.

 

[captainjack]

Tune up drills are taught by handling to a very tight line and repeated over a series of days. There is no correction(not that dogs wouldn't feel the handling as pressure).

You need more than one or two blinds and they all don't need the exact same concept. You can go with a 3 or 4 peat, straining with a get in that is relatively simple, then transition to the difficult blind you are trying to run, then finish with a get in and stay in til the end of the pond. The "concept" is comfort running near water but not getting in right away.

 

[bshaf]

Not commenting on the pressure of this but looking at your shadow in the video. Was the dog looking into a glaring sunset? This time of year, I've changed a couple setups because my pup would be looking at the sun when being handled? Just a thought that he may not have been seeing the cast. Looks like you shot your arm up pretty quick as well. Slow the cast down, allow the dog to see it.

 

[DL]

What I see is a dog that is thinking. He is thinking about what you want to him to do.
First he veers left (with the hayfield 'rows') - I would not have given a verbal back. He heads to water.
Then you stop him and give him another verbal left back (again, I would not give a verbal) - in his mind he looks, he sees water. Dad must want me to go to water... Not a bad thing - we train for it, right? - he scallops (sort of - I see it more as a direction change after trying to guess at what you want) wanting to get wet again. I would not use any pressure for this on the first 'failed' cast. I would use attrition if the dog repeated (bring dog back to original location, recast) - Like Justin said - it is a difficult thing to get a good correction for a dog that wants to get wet.
Then he gets one last cast and takes it all the way to the blind.

I know it is not easy to cast and take video - but it looks like perhaps your casting is a little sloppy? A couple of times you cast immediately after he sits. Let him sit a second or two before casting. Gives you time to think and him too.

Overall a very nice job, IMO. How far was it? those gopro vids make them look farther than they are.

I definitely should have gone non-verbal after he started heading to the water. I think I should have called him also from away from the water. I did straighten his sit because he was pointed to the water. Sometimes he comes in a little on that. That is kinda close to calling in a little in a sense in my mind. I could have called him in from the water after he enterred it.

On the first whistle in the beginning with the verbal back, he heads to the water so that is actually too much direction change. He is also wondering if I am going to recall him so verbal was more than likely the best. Part of the reason I am quick to cast sometimes, is because he is looking around, and I am waiting for him to look at me and get it in. One way of looking at it, is that I erred on the side of momentum. I didn't hack up the blind, but I could have given the silents and called him in without hacking it up. I'm kinda guessing at the distance but it is probably not more than 150 at most. The swim might have been 75. All the way to the other side might be pushing 300. I'm trying to make them around 150 so the pictures are more like field trial blinds.

I don't always straighten my dog unless he is totally pointed in the wrong direction. It is actually biting me in the butt a little right now with his looking around. He handles pretty well regardless. I have heard there is a rule that straightening a dog can be considered as non progress towards the blind in a field trial and cause for dropping. I get joying out of training my dog regardless. I don't like straightening him out when he is pointed in the right direction, ha, ha.

My handling probably looks sloppy but I am pretty consistent with my feet I think. I think he goes off the first part of the cast, and it is probably best to slow the arm movement down some. It is easier to see slow than fast. Thanks for watching it and giving me something to reflect on.

 

[DL]

Not commenting on the pressure of this but looking at your shadow in the video. Was the dog looking into a glaring sunset? This time of year, I've changed a couple setups because my pup would be looking at the sun when being handled? Just a thought that he may not have been seeing the cast. Looks like you shot your arm up pretty quick as well. Slow the cast down, allow the dog to see it.

You are right, the sun was right at my back and low in the sky because it late evening. I was getting a little excited. My dog does a lot of looking around and I have to make sure he is looking at me and let it rip sometimes. One thing about a dog being a little self employed, is one day you might need that. That's my theory and hope at least.

 

[Daren Galloway]

Instead of straightening him up all the time why don't you either teach him to sit square or teach him to cast however he's sitting. Don't nag.

 

[DL]

Instead of straightening him up all the time why don't you either teach him to sit square or teach him to cast however he's sitting. Don't nag.

It's information to the dog and diverts their attention, focus or whatever you want to call it. It gets them to the bird.

 

[DarrinGreene]

He could use some general obedience while in drive looking at his overall demeanor on line. You didn't ask about that though.

I was taught (rightfully so) that you shouldn't be messing around with a dog looking to get wet sooner, rather than later. I'd suggest being very very careful about that. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say the dog that got wet won the trial.

I was also taught that if the literal cast doesn't work, keep giving a bigger and bigger cast until you get what you want from the dog, using attrition only. Pretty much unless the dog doesn't go, stop or come, there are no collar corrections. Just keep working with him and giving him more information until he understands what you're looking for.

In a trial, you give whatever cast will get you there. You might give the dog a left over on that blind knowing he'll eventually suck to the water. Gotta know your dog.

All stuff I was taught along the way and have seen work well.

 

[DL]

He could use some general obedience while in drive looking at his overall demeanor on line. You didn't ask about that though.

I was taught (rightfully so) that you shouldn't be messing around with a dog looking to get wet sooner, rather than later. I'd suggest being very very careful about that. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say the dog that got wet won the trial.

I was also taught that if the literal cast doesn't work, keep giving a bigger and bigger cast until you get what you want from the dog, using attrition only. Pretty much unless the dog doesn't go, stop or come, there are no collar corrections. Just keep working with him and giving him more information until he understands what you're looking for.

In a trial, you give whatever cast will get you there. You might give the dog a left over on that blind knowing he'll eventually suck to the water. Gotta know your dog.

All stuff I was taught along the way and have seen work well.

Thanks, I appreciate the comments. Would you say he is in drive if he running a blind? It's an obedience exercise. The use of indirect pressure and some other things are covered in the sources. People use it. Heck I've used it. It comes into play with literal casting and is obviously a tool. Some people can't use the collar for multiple commands What's good for one person isn't good for everyone. Lots of people's dogs aren't decheated. I may never have another that is because I had help and it takes multiple people. My timing may not be right in the future.

 

[Mark Littlejohn]

What would you expect a dog to do when near water if you went verbal and no cast?

Go from there.

 

[DarrinGreene]

He's a whole body ahead of you coming to the line and barely focused. The first time you tried to lock him in failed. The second time it worked but then you said something else and confused him. You gave three sit whistles and not a single one of those was a proper response. Watching your hands go by the camera lense your casting looks lazy (please forgive me if that's a physical limitation or something). You're slow on the whistle when you gave a straight, driving right back and got an angle toward the water.

Good luck.

 

[mjh345]

He could use some general obedience while in drive looking at his overall demeanor on line. You didn't ask about that though.

I was taught (rightfully so) that you shouldn't be messing around with a dog looking to get wet sooner, rather than later. I'd suggest being very very careful about that. I can't tell you how many times I've heard someone say the dog that got wet won the trial.

I was also taught that if the literal cast doesn't work, keep giving a bigger and bigger cast until you get what you want from the dog, using attrition only. Pretty much unless the dog doesn't go, stop or come, there are no collar corrections. Just keep working with him and giving him more information until he understands what you're looking for.

In a trial, you give whatever cast will get you there. You might give the dog a left over on that blind knowing he'll eventually suck to the water. Gotta know your dog.

All stuff I was taught along the way and have seen work well.

Who taught you that?

 

[Daren Galloway]

Who taught you that?

Exactly, I was taught the exact OPPOSITE, after a correction of any kind give the same cast or less cast.

Who's training who here?

 

[captainjack]

Exactly, I was taught the exact OPPOSITE, after a correction of any kind give the same cast or less cast.

Who's training who here?

Agree. If you ever want the dog to learn what your arm position means, you got to stick with the literal cast in training. Ir your dog will think a walking over cast means 3 degree angle back.