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RetrieversONLINE

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
A short while ago, one thread here diverged into a discussion of whether dogs think. As a retired Wildlife Research Scientist, I knew that there was much research that showed dogs and many other species had superior (beyond their brain size) cognitive ability.

Tonight, I watched a Nature of Things documentary that discussed this very topic. I was surprised at how much has been learned in recent years. The documentary described research from whales to birds, to fish to reptiles to pigs and more that showed quite advanced thinking. Some of it involved problem-solving, memory, and decision making- that's what we ask out dogs to do all the time-make decisions. Frankly, I do not know how our dogs remember quads as well as they do! As they said, many species can remember better than humans! But it goes way beyond memory.

I was particularly impressed with a lizard experiment. A lizard watched a movie of another that had been trained to open a door to get food. The "popcorn" lizard quickly learned to do this after watching the movie!!

I have long known that wildlife watch others and learn some simple things but I did not know how valuable this really was for training retrievers. For several years I have been observing retrievers and their learning from watching other retrievers.

I use what I call a 3 x 3 method to transition dogs into cold blind retrieves. I document this in my 25 Essential Drills DVD as well as Retrievers ONLINE magazine articles. Basically, it is using sets of 3 walk around blinds, 3 cold blinds(3-peats- a term I coined thanks to Chicago Bulls!) and 3 repeated earlier blinds. The proportions depending on the dog and its progress.

I have now added to this a 3 X 3 Plus or 3 x 3[SUP]2[/SUP]procedure based on what I have seen from some young dogs. The additional to the 3 x 3 is to allow the learning younger dog to watch an advanced dog do a blind and then send the young dog for that blind. They do remarkably well especially if it is a 3-peat walk-around. It's just another technique to help what many find to be the biggest struggle-cold blinds with good attitude and understanding!

So my bottom-line is there is way more thinking going on that we recognize. And yet we must never forget that most of their consistent behaviour and response to command is developed through all the principles of learning theory including positive and negative reinforcement and punishment(Operant conditioning).

Conditioned responses and consistency in our interactions remains a key! But please remember that these dogs are smart thinkers! Smarter than some trainers!

Cheers
 
Great post Dennis, Charlie and I were talking about whether animals/ dogs reason on the way to SC the other day . He believed not, I believed so...based off observing how retrievers make decisions.
 
Ha! I've always been told you can't learn from watching videos. Well, good to know that science backs up what I've always thought. My dogs and I will be watching a training dvd tonight!
 
A short while ago, one thread here diverged into a discussion of whether dogs think. As a retired Wildlife Research Scientist, I knew that there was much research that showed dogs and many other species had superior (beyond their brain size) cognitive ability.

Tonight, I watched a Nature of Things documentary that discussed this very topic. I was surprised at how much has been learned in recent years. The documentary described research from whales to birds, to fish to reptiles to pigs and more that showed quite advanced thinking. Some of it involved problem-solving, memory, and decision making- that's what we ask out dogs to do all the time-make decisions. Frankly, I do not know how our dogs remember quads as well as they do! As they said, many species can remember better than humans! But it goes way beyond memory.

I was particularly impressed with a lizard experiment. A lizard watched a movie of another that had been trained to open a door to get food. The "popcorn" lizard quickly learned to do this after watching the movie!!

I have long known that wildlife watch others and learn some simple things but I did not know how valuable this really was for training retrievers. For several years I have been observing retrievers and their learning from watching other retrievers.

I use what I call a 3 x 3 method to transition dogs into cold blind retrieves. I document this in my 25 Essential Drills DVD as well as Retrievers ONLINE magazine articles. Basically, it is using sets of 3 walk around blinds, 3 cold blinds(3-peats- a term I coined thanks to Chicago Bulls!) and 3 repeated earlier blinds. The proportions depending on the dog and its progress.

I have now added to this a 3 X 3 Plus or 3 x 3[SUP]2[/SUP]procedure based on what I have seen from some young dogs. The additional to the 3 x 3 is to allow the learning younger dog to watch an advanced dog do a blind and then send the young dog for that blind. They do remarkably well especially if it is a 3-peat walk-around. It's just another technique to help what many find to be the biggest struggle-cold blinds with good attitude and understanding!

So my bottom-line is there is way more thinking going on that we recognize. And yet we must never forget that most of their consistent behaviour and response to command is developed through all the principles of learning theory including positive and negative reinforcement and punishment(Operant conditioning).

Conditioned responses and consistency in our interactions remains a key! But please remember that these dogs are smart thinkers! Smarter than some trainers!

Cheers
Boy Howdy
 
Discussion starter · #7 ·
RetrieversOnline wrote,


As a scientist you're standing behind this statement as fact?
Let's just say I have a lot of data to reject the null hypothesis that there is no difference between dogs that out smart trainers and trainers that out smart dogs!
 
Dennis,
Curious if you've noticed any difference in young dogs learning from more experienced dogs when they know the dog they are watching vs having no prior contact with the dog they are watching. Has seemed to me that at least with some dogs, they learn from a dog they have some positive relationship with but not from watching a stranger dog.
 
Discussion starter · #9 ·
Dennis,
Curious if you've noticed any difference in young dogs learning from more experienced dogs when they know the dog they are watching vs having no prior contact with the dog they are watching. Has seemed to me that at least with some dogs, they learn from a dog they have some positive relationship with but not from watching a stranger dog.

My experience with stranger dogs is too limited to say there is a difference although i have seen nothing different in small samples. What is important is to get them interested to watch the other dog and not be distracted elsewhere! Some are fascinated to watch and some less so!
 
In my generation, I usually don’t call someone by their first name, but since I don’t know your last name I will say Mr. Retreiversonline.
We can agree and disagree on what constitutes on what animal is even close to being capable of thought.
As I have said before the chips and the orangutans are very close to us as humans in our thought process.
Our dogs are simple animals and don’t come close to what I said above.
Their understanding of us is in repetitions…repetitions and repetitions.
Respectfully…
BJ
 
In my generation, I usually don’t call someone by their first name, but since I don’t know your last name I will say Mr. Retreiversonline.
We can agree and disagree on what constitutes on what animal is even close to being capable of thought.
As I have said before the chips and the orangutans are very close to us as humans in our thought process.
Our dogs are simple animals and don’t come close to what I said above.
Their understanding of us is in repetitions…repetitions and repetitions.
Respectfully…
BJ
Dude! Look at the bottom of his posts.
 
Discussion starter · #13 ·
In my generation, I usually don’t call someone by their first name, but since I don’t know your last name I will say Mr. Retreiversonline.
We can agree and disagree on what constitutes on what animal is even close to being capable of thought.
As I have said before the chips and the orangutans are very close to us as humans in our thought process.
Our dogs are simple animals and don’t come close to what I said above.
Their understanding of us is in repetitions…repetitions and repetitions.
Respectfully…
BJ
My first and last name is on every post of mine. Otherwise, I am posting as RetrieversONLINE-retrievers spelled thus! Who r u anyway? What pelts do u have?

I never said dogs think like humans but I maintain they think and in some cognitive skills out-think humans. This is also true of much less developed species! If a freakin lizard can learn from one movie, it is amazing! Yes repetition is most important but not necessary to think or make decisions!

Respectfully,
 
My first and last name is on every post of mine. Otherwise, I am posting as RetrieversONLINE-retrievers spelled thus! Who r u anyway? What pelts do u have?

I never said dogs think like humans but I maintain they think and in some cognitive skills out-think humans. This is also true of much less developed species! If a freakin lizard can learn from one movie, it is amazing! Yes repetition is most important but not necessary to think or make decisions!

Respectfully,
You must be careful in what you say...The internet can post bias in someone who thinks dogs are equal to us.
Pelts..you betcha ya...

BJ
 
Discussion starter · #18 ·
You must be careful in what you say...The internet can post bias in someone who thinks dogs are equal to us.
Pelts..you betcha ya...

BJ
I don't recall anyone here saying they think dogs are equal to us in thinking ability! And certainly not me! But many animals have talents and senses more developed than humans! Can you smell as good as a dog or see as as good as a peregrine or orient as well as a homer. We can't even read body English as well as dogs or horses!

I don't understand your resistance to the concept that dogs or other species can think!
 
I don't recall anyone here saying they think dogs are equal to us in thinking ability! And certainly not me! But many animals have talents and senses more developed than humans! Can you smell as good as a dog or see as as good as a peregrine or orient as well as a homer. We can't even read body English as well as dogs or horses!

I don't understand your resistance to the concept that dogs or other species can think!
Your question was the answer....
 
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