[mostlygold]

What was mentioned by some and ignored by some is the available resources at hand. Land and water may be available in great quantity in some areas and for some clubs. The trials I work for the most part have very limited grounds. You also have to factor in worker availability. If you only have 2 pieces of water that the stakes can runon, you have to manage your time to be certain all of the stakes can get to the water. Also worker resources. There are only so many people and most if not all of them are working multiple trials a year. Landowner requests are a factor too. At the areas we run trials, we can not start before 8am and have to stop by 6pm. repeatedly ignoring this will get your club thrown off the property. I also try to be generous with callbacks but in some instances, especially when there were violent and persistent storms, we had to shorten tests and be very critical of callbacks. This is not a black and white thing. There are too many factors involved to make statements as some have.
Dawn

 

[HoHum's Retrievers]

This thread reminds me of a funny story I heard. I will not name anyone, and I wouldn't be surprised if this hasn't happened more than once.

Here's the story...A very experienced fellow runs his dog in the AA stake and his dog has what he considered poor work. He didn't expect to be called back. But he is called back t the second series. His dog runs a really nice land blind. Called back to the third. Again, really nice work. Gets to the last series. One of the few dogs to do the last test. He is expecting to get into the color now after the 2nd, 3rd and 4th series. However, he is disappointed to not even get Green in the end. As the judge was an acquaintance he felt comfortable asking, he asks some time later what the deal was. How did he not even get green. Judge says it was because of his first series was so poor. WTF!

So, there's more to the story. Some years later the tables are turned and this experienced fellow is judging and this other fellow comes with his dog in the AA stake. The dog goes out there and has a poor first series. As he and his co-judge are doing call-backs his co-judge says, "we are dropping 'so-and-so,' correct." NO WAY! He's staying in. Dog has really poor land blind. Again, "we are dropping so-and-so" and again NO WAY! This keeps up through the entire trial. Poor work continues to get called back and in the end he got nothing. Payback is a *%!$#.

Now I find if kind of funny. I also find it kind of unsportsmanlike. Maybe it never happened. One can hope so. But I also could see it happen too.

 

[Wayne Nutt]

I don't run FT yet. But I sure appreciate master tests finishing at a decent time on Sunday. I have been there in the dark and its not fun. One test had the last few dogs running in the dark. I don't see how they did that. One flight had the last few dogs coming back on Monday. But weather was a real factor in these two instances.

 

[Happy Gilmore]

I don't run FT yet. But I sure appreciate master tests finishing at a decent time on Sunday. I have been there in the dark and its not fun. One test had the last few dogs running in the dark. I don't see how they did that. One flight had the last few dogs coming back on Monday. But weather was a real factor in these two instances.

It happens. No point in even batting an eye at it. Never seen a Monday thankfully.

 

[Tom O]

I am a 50 year veteran of Field Trials and have judged extensively. When I started, you could enter for around $20. Today entry fees of $100 are not uncommon. Granted, inflation has caused much of this, but the "value" to the contestant has remained pretty constant. The rules state"Retrievers should perform equally well on the land and in the water, and shall be thoroughly tested on both." So, we all want to participate as long as "eternal optimism" tells us we can at the very least "get a green", right? Being part of the event measuring our progress with our dogs and a day out with friends and those of like interests is what it's about, isn't it? When I judge, a single failure or major fault usually sends a contestant home (assuming my co-judge agrees as BOTH must want to drop a dog), but 2 minor faults is the threshold that prevents getting to the next series. As a number of people have asserted, there are often dogs that excel in the first series only to fall flat handling or in the water. The rule book is clear, if they have not failed, they need to be tested in the wet stuff!

 

[BonMallari]

Kinda surprised nobody has brought up what happens at a National where a dog has a poor first series or even a quick handle, and then proceeds to run the table with excellent work the rest of the way...makes for some interesting internet armchair speculation...and YES I know the old adage that "..not all handles in the National are equal"..." ..a handle at a National is not an automatic reason for dropping a dog.."

 

[Marvin S]

I am a 50 year veteran of Field Trials and have judged extensively. When I started, you could enter for around $20. Today entry fees of $100 are not uncommon. Granted, inflation has caused much of this, but the "value" to the contestant has remained pretty constant. The rules state"Retrievers should perform equally well on the land and in the water, and shall be thoroughly tested on both." So, we all want to participate as long as "eternal optimism" tells us we can at the very least "get a green", right? Being part of the event measuring our progress with our dogs and a day out with friends and those of like interests is what it's about, isn't it? When I judge, a single failure or major fault usually sends a contestant home (assuming my co-judge agrees as BOTH must want to drop a dog), but 2 minor faults is the threshold that prevents getting to the next series. As a number of people have asserted, there are often dogs that excel in the first series only to fall flat handling or in the water. The rule book is clear, if they have not failed, they need to be tested in the wet stuff!

When I started it was $7.50 for the minor stakes & $12.50 for the AA stakes. Club members also did all the work except gunning!

You post is as it should be. Unfortunately, other things get in the way.

 

[Marvin S]

Kinda surprised nobody has brought up what happens at a National where a dog has a poor first series or even a quick handle, and then proceeds to run the table with excellent work the rest of the way...makes for some interesting internet armchair speculation...and YES I know the old adage that "..not all handles in the National are equal"..." ..a handle at a National is not an automatic reason for dropping a dog.."

Nor are all hunts! The National Lanse judged was won by a dog with a handle while a dog that SHH was a finisher!

 

[bjoiner]

I can tell you that I have seen both liberal callbacks and the exact opposite when time was not a factor. The whole demeanor of everyone in the trial was entirely different in each scenario. I'm in this game to have a good time, meet new friends and catch up with old ones. If your happy and hanging around all weekend it sure makes that easier.

 

[Mark Littlejohn]

This happened this weekend. 50-something dog open. All series were challenging. We called back 30 to the 2nd; 25 of these were so-so. What are you going to do otherwise, carry 4 or 5 to 2nd? Took our time, let a lot of dogs compete, made cuts after the 3rd, took 10 to the 4th Sunday morning. Kept our foot on the gas in the 4th. Clear cut winner.

 

[labsforme]

I agree to carry dogs with decent work. In AA stakes make the first series tough enough to get separation and carry dogs that deserve it not just to be nice. However don't carry dogs that are completely marginal and paint yourselves into a corner in now making the blinds more important then the marks. Minor stakes carry as many as possible and let them play.

 

[John Robinson]

An old time mentor told me a long time ago, to test them hard and judge them easy. In other words, set up hard test, but be generous with your callbacks.

 

[Ted Shih]

I agree to carry dogs with decent work. In AA stakes make the first series tough enough to get separation and carry dogs that deserve it not just to be nice. However don't carry dogs that are completely marginal and paint yourselves into a corner in now making the blinds more important then the marks. Minor stakes carry as many as possible and let them play.

Jeff

If you have time, what's the rush?
If your first series is hard enough, you may find that you can bring back two big hunts (what you might call marginal work)
If your second and third series are hard enough, you can extend grace to dogs with good marks and poor blinds, drop dogs with bad marks and bad blinds, and keep dogs with marginal marks and good blinds
If your fourth series is hard enough, you will find that there will be plenty of room to decide a winner.

The keys are having time and hard tests.

Ted

 

[Bridget Bodine]

Mark , were the original 4-5 from the first series in the ribbons?

 

[EdA]

An old time mentor told me a long time ago, to test them hard and judge them easy. In other words, set up hard test, but be generous with your callbacks.

Expressed another way John, I always tell my co-judge "you can call them back if they are bad but you cannot drop them if they are good". Difficult tests provide the template for that philosophy.

 

[Mark Littlejohn]

Mark , were the original 4-5 from the first series in the ribbons?

Yes. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd were among those 5.

 

[Happy Gilmore]

Nor are all hunts! The National Lanse judged was won by a dog with a handle while a dog that SHH was a finisher!

Makes me glad I started when it was $80.

 

[Happy Gilmore]

Jeff

If you have time, what's the rush?
If your first series is hard enough, you may find that you can bring back two big hunts (what you might call marginal work)
If your second and third series are hard enough, you can extend grace to dogs with good marks and poor blinds, drop dogs with bad marks and bad blinds, and keep dogs with marginal marks and good blinds
If your fourth series is hard enough, you will find that there will be plenty of room to decide a winner.

The keys are having time and hard tests.

Ted

That's all fine and good until he's got to give a placement to a brown dog because it can dive like her namesake from the Bond film....

 

[Wayne Nutt]

My one and only FT, so far, was a derby. First series was easy for me and almost all dogs called back. Second series Rowdy struggled with the 330 yard memory bird. He got almost out there but popped at a ditch line. Judge told me to move and Rowdy resumed his hunt and retrieved bird.
I started my usual whining about poor performance. Judge told me "let us do the judging". I will always remember that comment.
Rowdy was called back.

 

[labsforme]

Jeff

If you have time, what's the rush?
If your first series is hard enough, you may find that you can bring back two big hunts (what you might call marginal work)
If your second and third series are hard enough, you can extend grace to dogs with good marks and poor blinds, drop dogs with bad marks and bad blinds, and keep dogs with marginal marks and good blinds
If your fourth series is hard enough, you will find that there will be plenty of room to decide a winner.

The keys are having time and hard tests.

Ted

Ted, thank you. I think my comment was made in having seen some AA stakes with not hard enough first series and many dogs being called back ( 75%+) with the same judges judging the derby too. Then they pencil whip the blinds to cut the field down. I totally agree with you. I like the statement "If your second and third series are hard enough, you can extend grace to dogs with good marks and poor blinds, drop dogs with bad marks and bad blinds, and keep dogs with marginal marks and good blinds".

To Ms Pfancy thanks again for gunning

Jeff