[runninscared]

a general question for you guys here....

when you were just starting out did you ever feel like you had a dog that was to hot to handle? and how did you overcome it? ive listened to podcasts/videos and i hear people say all the time "i was new, and it just sorta worked out"
currently, i have plenty of great resources, my dog is almost 13 months now, and ive been doing hillmans puppy video for quite a while, i just got the heel video as well. but still hes wide open at all times. i just cant get him to sit more than about a minute and a half. im keeping it fun and exciting but his steadiness is so weak. he's only interested in doing what he wants to do at all times, not much of a team player and im not sure how to deal with it. i've thought about sending him off to a trainer. but i'd rather work through it and learn myself tbh.

if you were ever in my shoe's how did you overcome it? did you just stick it out and it worked out/failed? when was that breakthrough moment? or did you send the dog off to a trainer?

 

[Windjammer]

I think you need to find a local club, training group, or experienced mentor. Everyone started somewhere, at some point. If you have access to those "enablers", and catch the itch, do it yourself. I can tell you that having read all the books and seen all the DVDs, a local mentor is huge. They have been there, done that, and can critique you and your dog. You can do it yourself, and will find success, if you can find the right people to coach you.

 

[championretrievers]

Depends on how long you have been working on it. At 8 weeks, 12 weeks, 4 months we keep everything fun. But at 13 months, we would use corrective action if they weren't steady. A trainer can get him steady. but will he be steady for you? Agree with Mike, get a mentor

 

[brewbetter]

There's nothing like training with some experienced folks, you will get lots of immediate help, which means a lot. Pretty much what Mike said. If you like Hillman, you should consider his Traffic Cop DVD. At 2 yrs old, my dog started creeping, picking her butt up at the line, and she even broke once on a flyer. I spent 3 weeks on Traffic Cop, no other training during that time period. She is a different dog after that training. Her first hunt test this season is in October, will see how she does. In training, she is a lot steadier, doesn't move her feet or pick up her butt.

One thing you can do that might help, is every day, find a shady spot, get a chair and make her sit five or ten feet in front of you. First day two or three minutes. If she moves, with out saying anything, grab her by her collar and put her back in her spot, then go back and sit in your chair. Stretch it out to 15 minutes over a few weeks. Grab a book or magazine or play a game on your phone. No e-collar here. No yelling or talking to her. Just attrition. Do this in the back yard, in the house, at the park, on the tailgate. She needs to learn that when she is at sit, no matter where she is, she cannot move until you say so. Lots of praise and fun bumpers/ball/toy at the end of each session. Good luck.

 

[KwickLabs]

"I just got the heel video as well, but still hes wide open at all times. I just cant get him to sit more than about a minute and a half. I'm keeping it fun and exciting, but his steadiness is so weak. He's only interested in doing what he wants to do at all times, not much of a team player and I'm not sure how to deal with it. I've thought about sending him off to a trainer, but I'd rather work through it and learn myself."

A lot of what you are going through is fairly normal when combining very little training experience with a high drive pup. Persistence and patience should be your focus and especially pay attention to being consistent when training.

My present "very high energy" pup is using "Hillmann" and I've had some experience in training. It took me awhile to become "converted" to his approach and philosophy. I did have a strong mentor and that helped a lot. It is very easy to drift off into "left field". At the same time I did (still do) have a training group to work with.....However, when mentioning that am using Hillmann most every ones' eyes glaze over and the conversations ends. Therefore, if you are going to seek personal assistance, finding help will be a bit sketchy. Most of what you are experiencing indicates a lack of balance. The wild pup does not need as much of "Hillmann's game" to keep the excitement high. So you might first try and reduce the emphasis on that......a little bit at a time. Over the top can become a problem.

If he will only sit still for a minute and a half...work on increasing that in small quantities of seconds. It took me quite awhile to get Pounce up to five minutes. Some might say Why?, but it was what she needed. The heeling video you just purchased is "wonderful". I just began Pounce on that process recently and she will be working on that over the next few months......yes, that is MONTHS. Practice, repetition and being consistent should be the focus of your training. Pup is too fast........you slow down. Still too fast....you slow down more. Take charge in small increments and be persistent while enhancing his responsiveness. Plan every session ahead of time with specific short term goals.

edit: "I'd rather work through it and learn myself." Good for you!

 

[Tobias]

a general question for you guys here....

when you were just starting out did you ever feel like you had a dog that was to hot to handle? and how did you overcome it? ive listened to podcasts/videos and i hear people say all the time "i was new, and it just sorta worked out"
currently, i have plenty of great resources, my dog is almost 13 months now, and ive been doing hillmans puppy video for quite a while, i just got the heel video as well. but still hes wide open at all times. i just cant get him to sit more than about a minute and a half. im keeping it fun and exciting but his steadiness is so weak. he's only interested in doing what he wants to do at all times, not much of a team player and im not sure how to deal with it. i've thought about sending him off to a trainer. but i'd rather work through it and learn myself tbh.

if you were ever in my shoe's how did you overcome it? did you just stick it out and it worked out/failed? when was that breakthrough moment? or did you send the dog off to a trainer?

Some dogs/pups take a while to mature. Some seem they never do, lol....
I've witnessed a few 'too much dog for the handler' situations and while it might be comical for others to watch, it is NO fun for the handler of said dog.

Consistency.... Lots and lots of obedience/heel work - a lot depends on the type of dog, but some types of dogs need to have the 'thumb' on them at all times (that means very high standards once they know a command).

As Jim said, less will probably be more with your pup, esp if you use Hillmann.

"I'm keeping it fun and exciting" - he probably needs less of this.

Probably you should not throw any fun bumpers at all for him - require steadiness for every retrieve. Do not let him pick up every retrieve. Make sure he can honor you - even if you have to tie him to a post to enforce the steadiness.

He might not naturally be a team player, so you may have to use his prey drive to reinforce the behaviors. Eventually he will learn that the retrieve is the reward and he will do what you ask him to do in order to get the reward.


In the house and general 'non training' environment.... NILF - everything he gets he gets because he has done something for you. Follow you through doors, sit/stay/down/here/name your command - for everything.. food, retrieve, praise, etc....

 

[runninscared]

"I just got the heel video as well, but still hes wide open at all times. I just cant get him to sit more than about a minute and a half. I'm keeping it fun and exciting, but his steadiness is so weak. He's only interested in doing what he wants to do at all times, not much of a team player and I'm not sure how to deal with it. I've thought about sending him off to a trainer, but I'd rather work through it and learn myself."

A lot of what you are going through is fairly normal when combining very little training experience with a high drive pup. Persistence and patience should be your focus and especially pay attention to being consistent when training.

My present "very high energy" pup is using "Hillmann" and I've had some experience in training. It took me awhile to become "converted" to his approach and philosophy. I did have a strong mentor and that helped a lot. It is very easy to drift off into "left field". At the same time I did (still do) have a training group to work with.....However, when mentioning that am using Hillmann most every ones' eyes glaze over and the conversations ends. Therefore, if you are going to seek personal assistance, finding help will be a bit sketchy. Most of what you are experiencing indicates a lack of balance. The wild pup does not need as much of "Hillmann's game" to keep the excitement high. So you might first try and reduce the emphasis on that......a little bit at a time. Over the top can become a problem.

If he will only sit still for a minute and a half...work on increasing that in small quantities of seconds. It took me quite awhile to get Pounce up to five minutes. Some might say Why?, but it was what she needed. The heeling video you just purchased is "wonderful". I just began Pounce on that process recently and she will be working on that over the next few months......yes, that is MONTHS. Practice, repetition and being consistent should be the focus of your training. Pup is too fast........you slow down. Still too fast....you slow down more. Take charge in small increments and be persistent while enhancing his responsiveness. Plan every session ahead of time with specific short term goals.

edit: "I'd rather work through it and learn myself." Good for you!

i think hillman's stuff so far is absolutely top notch, and find it surprising people would turn their noses up at it. to each their own i guess. im betting the majority of guys are using lardy/graham.

i bought the smartworks books but tbh for a beginner they are extremely vague, i find it hard to follow. im betting the dvd's would make them much easier to understand/follow but i dont feel like investing the money atm, would rather just buy fundamentals: land/water.

also the heel command(the hillman video) is awesome!

 

[1tulip]

also the heel command(the hillman video) is awesome!

That is an understatement. I couldn't recommend it strongly enough.

 

[Randy Bohn]

Videos and books are all great...BUT...read post #2 again...NFL quarterbacks watch tapes but they also get real experience....only way to really learn...Randy

 

[polmaise]

Videos and books are all great...BUT...read post #2 again...NFL quarterbacks watch tapes but they also get real experience....only way to really learn...Randy

Ain't that the truth , but ''Don't blame the quarterback''
Post #2 requires another read.

 

[DarrinGreene]

Videos and books are all great...BUT...read post #2 again...NFL quarterbacks watch tapes but they also get real experience....only way to really learn...Randy

^^^^ this - I had a number of great mentors with my first dog and many more since that have helped me - invaluable relationships to have

 

[Steve Shaver]

a general question for you guys here....

when you were just starting out did you ever feel like you had a dog that was to hot to handle? and how did you overcome it? ive listened to podcasts/videos and i hear people say all the time "i was new, and it just sorta worked out"
currently, i have plenty of great resources, my dog is almost 13 months now, and ive been doing hillmans puppy video for quite a while, i just got the heel video as well. but still hes wide open at all times. i just cant get him to sit more than about a minute and a half. im keeping it fun and exciting but his steadiness is so weak. he's only interested in doing what he wants to do at all times, not much of a team player and im not sure how to deal with it. i've thought about sending him off to a trainer. but i'd rather work through it and learn myself tbh.

if you were ever in my shoe's how did you overcome it? did you just stick it out and it worked out/failed? when was that breakthrough moment? or did you send the dog off to a trainer?

If he's 13 months old and still not under control maybe you need to quit making it quite so fun and exciting. Sounds as though this dog doesn't need that so much. I'd buckle down and make things happen. What was the old Nike/Michael Jordon phrase, just do it? If he wont sit for more than a minute work on it. Make him sit, if he moves take him back to the same spot and make him sit again over and over and over and over again what ever it takes. Set a standard and stick to it 1000%. It really is as simple as "JUST DO IT. Ask yourself, what am I trying to accomplish and what do I need to do to accomplish it. Think about it!
Training dogs is like walking a tight rope. Read your dog. If you over or under do something you will fall off one side or the other. Sounds as though you have fallen off the under do side and you need to toughen up some to get back up on the rope but be careful not to fall off the other side. Also remember whos in charge and whos training who. Some dogs need a lot of encouragement and fun and excitement and some not so much. Sounds to me like you have a not so much kind of dog. Hopefully your screen name (Runninscared) is not the way you are approaching your training cuz if it is your dog knows that.
As others have mentioned a good mentor or coach would be the best thing to have but if not you can still make things happen and for me experience is the best teacher. I had no mentor and there was a lot less books and videos to learn form. I learned from the Lardy articles in retriever Journal and the Tritronics Retriever training book by Jim Dobbs and right here on RTF. The articles and books showed me the methods to teach something but there is nothing like experience to make those methods work. My first dog taught me waaaay more than I ever taught him. I really like Lardy's flow chart but don't get caught up in a time frame your dog will determine the rate of progress but follow the steps and don't put the cart before the horse.

 

[KeystoneDekeChesapeake]

In the house and general 'non training' environment.... NILF - everything he gets he gets because he has done something for you. Follow you through doors, sit/stay/down/here/name your command - for everything.. food, retrieve, praise, etc....

THIS! Because let's be honest. A house dog spends a ton of 'non-training' time with you. So even when you think you aren't training, he's learning from you with every action no matter where or when it is. Start small(short periods) and incrementally work your way up until that one day you forget you put him at sit and return 5 minutes later to find him in the same position at sit. It's a great thing.

Also, I would have never made it through grade school with both good and bad teachers. You can learn something from all of them.

 

[Steve Shaver]

In the house and general 'non training' environment.... NILF - everything he gets he gets because he has done something for you. Follow you through doors, sit/stay/down/here/name your command - for everything.. food, retrieve, praise, etc....

THIS! Because let's be honest. A house dog spends a ton of 'non-training' time with you. So even when you think you aren't training, he's learning from you with every action no matter where or when it is. Start small(short periods) and incrementally work your way up until that one day you forget you put him at sit and return 5 minutes later to find him in the same position at sit. It's a great thing.

Also, I would have never made it through grade school with both good and bad teachers. You can learn something from all of them.

Agreed but I would like to change the bolded statement a bit. Keep in mind that you ARE ALWAYS training.

 

[NateB]

Agreed but I would like to change the bolded statement a bit. Keep in mind that you ARE ALWAYS training.

AMEN, the biggest asset of training with others and watching them train other dogs, is learning to READ YOUR DOG. Your dog is not the dog in the video, he is not the dog you watch when others train their dogs. Like Randy said, this is a very subtle skill that requires experience, and to steal his analogy, the NFL rookie QB will only learn under the fire of participation.

Once you can read your dog then you will know how to proceed. Biggest single thing I learned at a Mike Lardy workshop "a couple" of years ago.

 

[Hunt'EmUp]

I prefer a down to a sit, just seems to put a dog in a state where they surrendered to the situation better; which is pretty much what you want a hot-dog to do. Learn patience, to be calm and stop continuous movement. Just practice, practice; for some reason being calm is very hard for some dogs; you might be surprised how exhausted both he and you are after a few sessions, of doing nothing but staying not moving in a down or sit. Also Hot dogs don't need things to be kept funny and exciting; they already have too much of that ingrained. Boring is sometimes your best bet, although having a little fire rocket; her being bored, for any extended period of time doesn't happen much; but she can lay down and watch all the other dogs run, semi-relaxed with no movement or noise. Just watch-out when you get to her turn to run. I'm think about changing her name to "Controlled Chaos", the controlled part took a good deal of time and maintenance to accomplish .