[moscowitz]

Really? What would that be for??

Throw the stones where the bird has fallen so the dog can retrieve it.

 

[DarrinGreene]

I think you'll find Milner or Wildrose are similar to a degree to what you're asking Hugh. Polmaise and Eugene may be of some assistance also, as I don't think either one uses those techniques (could be wrong).

Look up Christopher Upton from the UK also.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

Throw the stones where the bird has fallen so the dog can retrieve it.

Carrying a bunch of rocks along hunting sounds a lot harder than just teaching blind retrieves.

 

[22899]

Carrying a bunch of rocks along hunting sounds a lot harder than just teaching blind retrieves.

I always thought that was the "dirt clod drill" in training..

I figgered the ritzy Field Trialers had enough money to use Rocks! ( and could afford to drink coffee, so theys always had cans..)

There USE to be a LOT to learn here..

Sense of humor was one of them..

 

[22899]

Just my Opinion:

A dog that can reliable Mark and retrieve doubles from distances between 35 to 80 yards,,and can run a simple blind ,taking correct casts to get the dog downwind of where a bird fell,, is all the Hunting dog you need..

What is nice to have is a compliant dog.. A dog that is comfortable sitting queitly in a blind,and when sent for a mark,,,,MARKS… and when handled takes casts reasonably well..

A Reliable Senior/Seasoned level dog fits that bill just fine..

The training involved to getting a dog to that level, imho, would be a dog just into transition.. all steps before this is the same no matter what final goals you have..

For a hunting dog,, Solid obedience is a must.. (Its the first step in BASICS) It makes your day afield more of a pleasure..

COMPLIANT... in the Uplands consists of staying in gun range, has a deliberate dedicated hunt attitude, and quarters in front.. When the bird flushes,,dog will Sit" and is steady till sent to retrieve..

Most any program will get you there... I personally,, would look close at Hillmann.. He does use the collar, and he FF's,, but,, his methods are different..

Again,,, JMHO

 

[Tobias]

There USE to be a LOT to learn here..

Sense of humor was one of them..

Amen brother!

 

[Colonel Blimp]

Darrin posted

I think you'll find Milner or Wildrose are similar to a degree to what you're asking Hugh. Polmaise and Eugene may be of some assistance also, as I don't think either one uses those techniques (could be wrong). Look up Christopher Upton from the UK also.

Well, you asked for it.

Robert is very much a trail blazer for the "positive only" movement and relies a good deal on clicker. Nothing wrong with that, but it's more of a philosophical change in approach than I think Hugh may be looking for, and it needs some study, not least in the correct use of clicker which is a skill no easier to acquire than correct use of the collar. I'd be quite happy to follow Robert, but then I've travelled the road before; even so I use some aversives as and when.

Wildrose is distinctly weak on the basic OB tasks, (having said that so IMO are some of the collar based schemes, notably Strawsky) but the rest of it is pretty good, quite inventive, and includes a sort of FF Lite without the collar. Mind where you step with the marketing shoite.

Some years ago I was an overseas member of The American Hunting Dog Club; their publication "Training the Sporting Dog" is an excellent, comprehensive work, very strong on reviewing the progress of both dog and handler, so it might well suit Hugh's needs. Non collar (and quite keen not to be,) FF is shown via ear pinch, and obviously the whole thing is directed at US style hunting. The chapter on dog aggression is .... well, a chapter on dog aggression

Vic Barlow's book and Martin Deeley's are useful; Deeley's the better of the two.

Upton is not recommended.

You'd probably get the lot for $120, but if I was doing the job barebones, I'd go AHDC and Wildrose, deciding as I go along if FF is needed for that particular dog. The Lardy flow chart is nice to have alongside and has the inestimable virtue of being free and fer nuffink.

 

[Steve Shaver]

Thanks ALL!!

The time isn't here yet, but I don't think we have more than a very few weeks. King doesn't seem to be in discomfort, but is sleeping much more and, although he asks me to throw the toy at the regular times, he is only interested in one or two retrieves at a time and the wants to rest.

I've been to Robert Milner's Website and downloaded the free book "Absolutely Positively Gundog Training". Have been reading the beginning. I find it pretty interesting, but find this:

Pick a Dog That Fits

A FRIEND OF MINE ONCE told me, “If you want to train a good duck-dog, then start with a good dog.” He was right. I would add to that, “Start with a good dog that fits you.” The retriever that fits most duck hunters is smart, easy to train, and pleasant to have around the house, and gets all the ducks.
The duck hunter needs a smart, easy-to-train dog, because most are not looking for a second job as a dog trainer. The duck hunter needs a pleasant-to-have- around dog, because most of the dog’s time is spent being a companion and a family dog. Additionally, he needs a dog that sits quietly in the blind when the birds are working and the guns are shooting.
All retrievers don’t possess the attributes of a great gundog. They come in a great variety of personality types. Important differences are those concerning drive and game-finding initiative, demeanor and personality, intelligence and trainability, and natural delivery to hand. As I describe these traits, I will tell you how to measure and evaluate a dog relative to these attributes. The measurement exercises are valid for dogs that are nine months and older and at least “partially trained” with the exception of the delivery-to-hand trait. Here are some ways of looking at a started or trained dog or the parents of a litter you are considering.

pretty frightening, esp. the underlined part. By the time traits that are not a good fit show up, the dog is probably already in our hearts. We fall in love pretty quickly around here.

My best advice would be to start with good breeding and I would go with a good field trial pedigree also. Generally with this type of breeding you get the most import thing, BRAINS. I wouldn't fall into the trap of that's too much dog for me. My dogs come from a pedigree with the reputation of being one of the most high powered crazy lines there is and they are perfect sweethearts around the house and in the blind. I think craziness is mostly an environmental thing, they are what you make them. I also would train by one of the better field trial type methods Just omit the collar part. I personally would avoid stuff like clicker training and all positive crap. I would however not skip force fetch, probably the most important thing you could do. Force fetch in my opinion is a very advance form of obedience and puts the icing on the cake during basics and sets the stage for more advance training. It turns a puppy into a dog.

 

[crackerd]

Beautifully "Villa-fied," Eug, if "Vanilla icing-ified" - especially the plug for the good ol' AHDC manifesto. Lastly, Mr. Atkinson and moi were recently jawing over the lack of lament in certain quarters at Martin Deeley's passing - good lad for our game, whomever "our'n" might be.

Away for a little purely positive winter water ballet with the goils - no St. John's Lifeboatmen needed on a "wintry" day like this'n on the Seaboard -

Cheers, and Up the Albion with Slavo!

MG

Darrin posted Well, you asked for it.

Robert is very much a trail blazer for the "positive only" movement and relies a good deal on clicker. Nothing wrong with that, but it's more of a philosophical change in approach than I think Hugh may be looking for, and it needs some study, not least in the correct use of clicker which is a skill no easier to acquire than correct use of the collar. I'd be quite happy to follow Robert, but then I've travelled the road before; even so I use some aversives as and when.

Wildrose is distinctly weak on the basic OB tasks, (having said that so IMO are some of the collar based schemes, notably Strawsky) but the rest of it is pretty good, quite inventive, and includes a sort of FF Lite without the collar. Mind where you step with the marketing shoite.

Some years ago I was an overseas member of The American Hunting Dog Club; their publication "Training the Sporting Dog" is an excellent, comprehensive work, very strong on reviewing the progress of both dog and handler, so it might well suit Hugh's needs. Non collar (and quite keen not to be,) FF is shown via ear pinch, and obviously the whole thing is directed at US style hunting. The chapter on dog aggression is .... well, a chapter on dog aggression

Vic Barlow's book and Martin Deeley's are useful; Deeley's the better of the two.

Upton is not recommended.

You'd probably get the lot for $120, but if I was doing the job barebones, I'd go AHDC and Wildrose, deciding as I go along if FF is needed for that particular dog. The Lardy flow chart is nice to have alongside and has the inestimable virtue of being free and fer nuffink.

 

[Colonel Blimp]

Mike,

Good man Yerself!

We were guests at the Wolves yesterday, met Nuno and a few of the players .... The Management presented the Man of The Match award to Dendonker; I think she quite fancied him!

Poor game, Wolves were are long way short of their best. I tried to heave another cabbage at Steve Bruce but a steward said he was already fixed up for Sunday lunch.

Hope to see you guys next year but not in the Championship.

Ian Openshaw reckoned that Martin was the only man he'd ever met that could talk under water; only met him briefly at a Game Fair, but thought he was the genuine article.

Eugene

 

[KwickLabs]

After reading this thread about duck hunting and rocks, I remembered a time long ago where rocks were involved.
The internet is very cool. I did a search using "KwickLabs, duck hunting and rocks". A January, 2012 post of mine in
Mud Motor Talk (about force fetch) surfaced in the search.

If things progress really fast, the time from beginning force fetch to running simple cold blinds has been about 8-9 months
for my pups. That's training regularly about 4-6 days a week.

Then again if you attempt shortcuts and are lucky.....you might get away with what I did before I knew any better way.
Many, many years ago, I picked up a free, four year old Lab. She had never been used for hunting. At that time I had
decided duck hunting looked like fun......but I needed a dog. The best thing about this Lab was she was free.

We worked a couple of weeks on hold. Then it took another three weeks to "convince" her she had to retrieve from water.
That training was highly unconventional, but it worked. We soon after went duck hunting (first time for both of us) and I
had a pocket full of rocks. When she didn't see where a duck fell, I threw rocks and she'd "follow" the splashes. It wasn't
long before I could fake throwing a rock and she went in the direction of my arm's motion. "Voila!", she was handling on
cold blinds. I think we lost one bird in three years of hunting. I laugh about it every time the memory pops up. That was
about fifty years ago.

The convincing her to retrieve from water was....let's just say amusing.....now.

 

[HPL]

Just my Opinion:

A dog that can reliable Mark and retrieve doubles from distances between 35 to 80 yards,,and can run a simple blind ,taking correct casts to get the dog downwind of where a bird fell,, is all the Hunting dog you need..

What is nice to have is a compliant dog.. A dog that is comfortable sitting queitly in a blind,and when sent for a mark,,,,MARKS… and when handled takes casts reasonably well..

A Reliable Senior/Seasoned level dog fits that bill just fine..

The training involved to getting a dog to that level, imho, would be a dog just into transition.. all steps before this is the same no matter what final goals you have..

For a hunting dog,, Solid obedience is a must.. (Its the first step in BASICS) It makes your day afield more of a pleasure..

COMPLIANT... in the Uplands consists of staying in gun range, has a deliberate dedicated hunt attitude, and quarters in front.. When the bird flushes,,dog will Sit" and is steady till sent to retrieve..

Most any program will get you there... I personally,, would look close at Hillmann.. He does use the collar, and he FF's,, but,, his methods are different..

Again,,, JMHO

This does a great job of describing my first (and best for me) lab. I found him in Corpus Christi, don't remember how. No health certs or anything. I eventually had his hips x-rayed and they weren't bad, but not great either. Had some pretty bad skin allergies and that translated into lick granulomas and constant ear infections, but he loved to retrieve and had a great nose. He was born 12/31/79. I shot my first bird over him opening weekend of white wing season (first weekend of Sept.) when he was exactly 8 months old. He retrieved hundreds of dove and a few score ducks over his 12 years of active life. I only remember losing 3 birds in that whole time. If he missed a mark or it was a blind, I just had to get him down wind and the tail would start going in circles until he found the bird. I can't remember if it was his first or second season, but we were invited to go out dove hunting with some of Pam's coworkers. I was the only one with a dog. We were hunting stretched out far enough to not be in lethal range of each other. The fellow nearest to us knocked a bird down in a pretty good sized motte of South Texas thorn scrub. Would have been hard to get in on your hands and knees. I walked the dog over to the edge of the motte and sent him in to "seek". A minute or two later, out he comes with the bird. Actually amazed all of us. As far as I know he hadn't seen it fall, but the nose knows. To finish the story, I walked over and handed the bird to my friend, he walked back to where he was hunting and put it in his bag (which was lying on the ground). We went back to hunting, but it was slow, and I wasn't paying enough attention to my pup. All of a sudden I hear Bill yelling. My dog had trotted over to him, stuck his head in the bird bag, picked out "our" bird, and was bringing it back to me. He knew who his pack was. My ideal dog would be my first dog's head and personality, my second dog's coat, and King's hips and athleticism. Gonna be hard to find.

HPL

 

[DarrinGreene]

I just circled back around here to see what others recommended, in case something interesting was mentioned.

Reading the thread got me to thinking, Hugh.

Why do you really want something sans the e-collar or "force fetch". Mike mentioned Hillmann does things differently but there's really only one thing Bill does in his materials, which is that he relies on just above perceivable pressure and a lot of repetition to get the point across.

No disrespect to your wishes and this isn't meant to be a "you're crazy if you don't" statement. Truly, to each their own, especially if someone wants to use LESS pressure... but...

I wonder if (in a general sense) trying to avoid the tools and process can actually put MORE pressure on the dog in the end? I suppose that depends on someone's maturity level and temperament. Unless you get a very high drive, easily teachable pup (I hope you do), most people aren't likely to have the patience it takes to forgo the collar or FF. I can see some folks who are interested in this but also have a tendency to get easily frustrated becoming a very confusing human from the dog's perspective. People get sort of passive aggressive at times when they and the dog aren't equipped to perform well. It all starts out fine but it ends in raised voices and sometimes raised hands that are more confusing than educational for the dog on the receiving end.

That's not a judgement - nor an accusation - not anything of the sort. It's just an observation I've made over the years about what people do. I see a lot that wouldn't let me put an e-collar on their precious little foo foo but have no problem screaming at the top of their lungs while looming over the poor dog like King Kong reincarnate. The collar would be so much easier both physically and mentally at times that it seems criminal to forgo it's usage.

Wish you luck. Just thinking some self examination of the "why" behind the decision not to FF or use a collar might be meaningful for people.

The collar is a scalpel, not a hammer. FF is a just a process despite the (unattractive) words and horrible stories we've all heard. It can all be done and used with care, faithfully and without any harm to your pup. Really, it can.

 

[Tobias]

It's just an observation I've made over the years about what people do. I see a lot that wouldn't let me put an e-collar on their precious little foo foo but have no problem screaming at the top of their lungs while looming over the poor dog like King Kong reincarnate.

hahahahaha! Truth~!

 

[fishduck]

I just circled back around here to see what others recommended, in case something interesting was mentioned.

Reading the thread got me to thinking, Hugh.

Why do you really want something sans the e-collar or "force fetch". Mike mentioned Hillmann does things differently but there's really only one thing Bill does in his materials, which is that he relies on just above perceivable pressure and a lot of repetition to get the point across.

No disrespect to your wishes and this isn't meant to be a "you're crazy if you don't" statement. Truly, to each their own, especially if someone wants to use LESS pressure... but...

I wonder if (in a general sense) trying to avoid the tools and process can actually put MORE pressure on the dog in the end? I suppose that depends on someone's maturity level and temperament. Unless you get a very high drive, easily teachable pup (I hope you do), most people aren't likely to have the patience it takes to forgo the collar or FF. I can see some folks who are interested in this but also have a tendency to get easily frustrated becoming a very confusing human from the dog's perspective. People get sort of passive aggressive at times when they and the dog aren't equipped to perform well. It all starts out fine but it ends in raised voices and sometimes raised hands that are more confusing than educational for the dog on the receiving end.

That's not a judgement - nor an accusation - not anything of the sort. It's just an observation I've made over the years about what people do. I see a lot that wouldn't let me put an e-collar on their precious little foo foo but have no problem screaming at the top of their lungs while looming over the poor dog like King Kong reincarnate. The collar would be so much easier both physically and mentally at times that it seems criminal to forgo it's usage.

Wish you luck. Just thinking some self examination of the "why" behind the decision not to FF or use a collar might be meaningful for people.

The collar is a scalpel, not a hammer. FF is a just a process despite the (unattractive) words and horrible stories we've all heard. It can all be done and used with care, faithfully and without any harm to your pup. Really, it can.

Very intuitive post!!! My personal experience mirrors your post. The dog I trained sans collar via Waterdog received more mental and physical pressure than any of the following dogs using modern e-collar methodology.

 

[NateB]

Very intuitive post!!! My personal experience mirrors your post. The dog I trained sans collar via Waterdog received more mental and physical pressure than any of the following dogs using modern e-collar methodology.

+1. My older dog does not hunt with a collar on, except maybe the first trip, but I train with it constantly on. I can count on one hand the number of corrections she gets in a full weekend of training. But if I need it, I got it. Cost is small, compared to the ability to get perfect timing of correction. Of course praise has to be given with good timing too. To them putting the collar on is part of getting ready to have fun, have to be careful not to make them collar wise but it can be done.

As far as FF, that is a step I will never skip. Its not about picking stuff up, it mainly to teach a dog how to handle and get out of pressure. Pressure can come from many different sources in addition to the collar. FF teaches them that non-compliance is not an option, along with good teaching and conditioning.

But most importantly, have fun with the dog, get that special connection we all want with our dogs. Plently of used collar for sale and some models without all the bells and whistles that you likely don't need. Best of luck in the future, and we are all here for you as all of us have gone through what you are going thru.

 

[DarrinGreene]

Very intuitive post!!! My personal experience mirrors your post. The dog I trained sans collar via Waterdog received more mental and physical pressure than any of the following dogs using modern e-collar methodology.

Takes a lot to come out and say that Mark. Thank you.

 

[HPL]

I just circled back around here to see what others recommended, in case something interesting was mentioned.

Reading the thread got me to thinking, Hugh.

Why do you really want something sans the e-collar or "force fetch". Mike mentioned Hillmann does things differently but there's really only one thing Bill does in his materials, which is that he relies on just above perceivable pressure and a lot of repetition to get the point across.

No disrespect to your wishes and this isn't meant to be a "you're crazy if you don't" statement. Truly, to each their own, especially if someone wants to use LESS pressure... but...

I wonder if (in a general sense) trying to avoid the tools and process can actually put MORE pressure on the dog in the end? I suppose that depends on someone's maturity level and temperament. Unless you get a very high drive, easily teachable pup (I hope you do), most people aren't likely to have the patience it takes to forgo the collar or FF. I can see some folks who are interested in this but also have a tendency to get easily frustrated becoming a very confusing human from the dog's perspective. People get sort of passive aggressive at times when they and the dog aren't equipped to perform well. It all starts out fine but it ends in raised voices and sometimes raised hands that are more confusing than educational for the dog on the receiving end.

That's not a judgement - nor an accusation - not anything of the sort. It's just an observation I've made over the years about what people do. I see a lot that wouldn't let me put an e-collar on their precious little foo foo but have no problem screaming at the top of their lungs while looming over the poor dog like King Kong reincarnate. The collar would be so much easier both physically and mentally at times that it seems criminal to forgo it's usage.

Wish you luck. Just thinking some self examination of the "why" behind the decision not to FF or use a collar might be meaningful for people.

The collar is a scalpel, not a hammer. FF is a just a process despite the (unattractive) words and horrible stories we've all heard. It can all be done and used with care, faithfully and without any harm to your pup. Really, it can.

Have been reading a fair amount over the last week and came across this as a partial counterpoint to your position: (Emphasis mine.)

It's often said that force fetch, and by proxy field trials (at least in the retriever world), is responsible for changing the disposition of the Labrador retriever. The contention is that force fetch, via training methodologies and breeding based upon trial success, has created a Lab that's too high powered, too hard headed, and too much dog for the average gun dog owner. The idea is that now the tail is wagging the dog, so to speak, and that continual breeding of dogs that could withstand the pressure of force fetch and the demands of high-stakes field trials has created a modern-day Labrador that now has to be force fetched; a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Hugh

 

[Gray_Chin]

Just my 0.2 from one hunter to another...pick up a copy of James Spencer - Training Retrievers for the Marshes and Meadows, this is pre e-collar advice, and has the best FF program I have seen in print or video...the other thing about FF is that there is no set time, so you don't have to decide right now...but I agree with Nate's reasoning 100%.

One more thing to add about the e-collar and hunting, I don't know about your style, but I hunt some pretty dangerous conditions at times and knowing I have long range control is a safety issue...moving water and very cold temps or what if that sailed cripple gets up and heads toward a road? It is so effective and humane I would never consider not using it...I'm very sorry about your dog and I hope you and your new puppy share many years and many mornings together.

 

[Bryan Parks]

I just circled back around here to see what others recommended, in case something interesting was mentioned.

Reading the thread got me to thinking, Hugh.

Why do you really want something sans the e-collar or "force fetch". Mike mentioned Hillmann does things differently but there's really only one thing Bill does in his materials, which is that he relies on just above perceivable pressure and a lot of repetition to get the point across.

No disrespect to your wishes and this isn't meant to be a "you're crazy if you don't" statement. Truly, to each their own, especially if someone wants to use LESS pressure... but...

I wonder if (in a general sense) trying to avoid the tools and process can actually put MORE pressure on the dog in the end? I suppose that depends on someone's maturity level and temperament. Unless you get a very high drive, easily teachable pup (I hope you do), most people aren't likely to have the patience it takes to forgo the collar or FF. I can see some folks who are interested in this but also have a tendency to get easily frustrated becoming a very confusing human from the dog's perspective. People get sort of passive aggressive at times when they and the dog aren't equipped to perform well. It all starts out fine but it ends in raised voices and sometimes raised hands that are more confusing than educational for the dog on the receiving end.

That's not a judgement - nor an accusation - not anything of the sort. It's just an observation I've made over the years about what people do. I see a lot that wouldn't let me put an e-collar on their precious little foo foo but have no problem screaming at the top of their lungs while looming over the poor dog like King Kong reincarnate. The collar would be so much easier both physically and mentally at times that it seems criminal to forgo it's usage.

Wish you luck. Just thinking some self examination of the "why" behind the decision not to FF or use a collar might be meaningful for people.

The collar is a scalpel, not a hammer. FF is a just a process despite the (unattractive) words and horrible stories we've all heard. It can all be done and used with care, faithfully and without any harm to your pup. Really, it can.

Have been reading a fair amount over the last week and came across this as a partial counterpoint to your position: (Emphasis mine.)

It's often said that force fetch, and by proxy field trials (at least in the retriever world), is responsible for changing the disposition of the Labrador retriever. The contention is that force fetch, via training methodologies and breeding based upon trial success, has created a Lab that's too high powered, too hard headed, and too much dog for the average gun dog owner. The idea is that now the tail is wagging the dog, so to speak, and that continual breeding of dogs that could withstand the pressure of force fetch and the demands of high-stakes field trials has created a modern-day Labrador that now has to be force fetched; a bit of a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Hugh

Any time I read "has to be force fetched" or "could withstand the pressure of force fetch" It immediately discredits the author in my opinion.