[drunkenpoacher]

As long as you are consistent in how you cast, sure.
I don't use verbal unless I really need it.

 

[Ted Shih]

I don't really want to get into a discussion about what Mike intentions in training are. I do think two things merit attention:

1) There are reasons you would not use a literal cast in competition
2) There are reasons you must be able to get a literal cast - specifically a straight back - in competition

To begin, let's agree as to vocabulary. When I use the term "literal" cast, I mean that if my dog took the cast it would line precisely in the direction of my cast. For example, with a straight right back, the dog would turn to the my right as I am observing him, and run to say 12:15 on the clock. If I gave an angle back right, the dog would line to 2 on the clock. If I gave an over, the dog would go to 3 on the clock.

In training, we strive to teach the dog to take the literal cast.
In competition, we do what we must to survive

Point 1: Imagine a water blind. The point runs from 0 to 6 on the ruler, 0 being the water side, 6 being where the point connects with land. The wind is blowing from left to right. The water is cold. The direct line to the blind is over 1 on the ruler. If the dog takes a line over the point it will disappear out of sight for 2-3 seconds. The dogs are getting on the point and for the most part, digging into dirt after being cast off the point

Your dog exits the water at 1 on the ruler (it is perfectly on line)
a) You could let the dog roll off the point (but silly given the conditions)
b) You could stop the dog and give a straight up left back (also silly given the conditions)
c) You could stop the dog and give a left angle back or left over.

Given the scenario, I would pick C, as it would give me the highest likelihood of getting my dog into the water, where I could immediately see him, and correct if necessary.

Point 2: For better or worse, the modern all age land blind frequently has very tight corridors, which require a dog to sit on a dime, and take a very tight straight back cast. If you cannot get a straight back, you do not make the key hole and are dropped.

Ted

 

[DL]

As far as what “Lardy” wrote as being fiction: Anytime something complex is simplified, it is distorted. A map is not the terrain.

My apologies if needed for playing games for my amusement and enlightenment. I don’t think I offended anyone. It is kinda fun. I think it is useful as well.

 

[J. Marti]

Is there a typo here in the red portion of the quote? Did you mean 12:15 on the clock or 12:05?

1) There are reasons you would not use a literal cast in competition
2) There are reasons you must be able to get a literal cast - specifically a straight back - in competition

To begin, let's agree as to vocabulary. When I use the term "literal" cast, I mean that if my dog took the cast it would line precisely in the direction of my cast. For example, with a straight right back, the dog would turn to my right as I am observing him, and run to say 12:15 on the clock. If I gave an angle back right, the dog would line to 2 on the clock. If I gave an over, the dog would go to 3 on the clock.
Ted

 

[drunkenpoacher]

Is there a typo here in the red portion of the quote? Did you mean 12:15 on the clock or 12:05?

The hour hand, not the minute hand.

 

[birddogn_tc]

Is there a typo here in the red portion of the quote? Did you mean 12:15 on the clock or 12:05?

it was a bit confusing. He meant the hour hand...like so....

 

[Ted Shih]

Ok. Let me try again. Instead of the clock, imagine a compass with 360 degrees. Imagine further that the blind is at 0/360 degrees, you are at 180 degrees, the dog is stopped at the center of the compass. Same water blind as detailed in post 42. Dog is on line when you stop the dog on the point. From handler's perspective, wind is blowing Left to Right, open water to the left, dirt to the right. Previous running dogs struggling or failing

When the dog exits the water onto the point, handler could:

1) Let the dog roll because dog on line;
2) Stop dog give literal cast, straight left back (350 degrees on the compass)
3) Stop dog give survival cast, walking left over (270 degrees on the compass)

Ted

 

[paul young]

Given that most dogs are failing to get back in the water where the handlers and judges can see them, I'm going with door #3.
Truth be told, that is what I am most likely to do on any over the point water blind. The fact that we were called back to the water blind means we have 2 good series under our belt. I want to complete the blind successfully and have a chance at a great job on the water marks.
I can always let the dog roll or try a 'hero' cast on Monday in training to remind myself why I did.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

The "safe" over cast off a point really becomes a cue to an experienced dog. Not as easy when the point isn't so pointy and the dog needs to take a lot of land before getting back in the water, you may need a straight back cast.

 

[DL]

Let’s say you don’t have an all age dog for random reasons: it is young or you can’t train a dog to that level or you can’t train a dog to that level yet, your dog is holding you back because it is a wash out or your grounds are holding you back, or your trainer is holding you back or your dog’s past training is holding you back.

Anyway in a random imperfect world how do you get a liiteral all age level back cast? I don’t know but I have experienced some ping ponging. Some people have dogs that haven’t been stretched out. I did a drill to get my dog going 200 yards. 200 yards is a good start. It is good for quite a lot. Doing 600 yard marks stretches a dog on blinds indirectly. I don’t understand stretching dogs out on blinds before they are doing equivalent marks. Doing long marks is easy. Scratching off the stretch out problem seems like a first step for a first time novice.

A dog can hear a verbal and think it means fetch something nearby. You are saying back louder and louder and the dog is hearing fetch it up. Most people won’t have that problem because the ecollar does the trick. My dog has the pain threshold of a Malinoi and gave me trouble on FF. I realize something like that isn’t straight forward and some of it is just reaction to pressure.... but the day you realize that button on the ecollar is not necessarily there for you is interesting.

A dog could be turning too fast to actually see the cast before it goes. Or ....you can give the cast and the dog will sit there and stare at you trying to figure it out. Then, you say back and it puts all the information together and wins the National. That is just my imagination. I can’t even win a Qualifying or have a steady dog. But .... as Charlie Munger says you want to learn by other people’s mistakes. You don’t want to make them yourself and be relinquished to the waste bin of History like me.

 

[DL]

You know a cast off a point has a root in disciplined casting. I use disciplined casting to get through swimby and swimby gets me casts into water. It is a disciplined cast if there ever was one. Granted it is the angle entries which win the day .... something I haven’t figure out yet but knowing is a good start of the battle.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

Anyway in a random imperfect world how do you get a liiteral all age level back cast?

A dog can hear a verbal and think it means fetch something nearby. You are saying back louder and louder and the dog is hearing fetch it up. Most people won’t have that problem because the ecollar does the trick.

Not claiming to be an expert.
Save the verbal for when you need it.
Louder and louder verbal probably means the dog has no idea what to do, simplify and teach.
The e collar does not "do the trick" if the dog does not understand the concept or the casts, unless the trick is creating a pig.

 

[Tim Carrion]

" I am beyond confused about literal casting and what it is.

"Literal" casting is casting the dog at the blind. "Non-Literal" casting is attempting to place the dog in the best possible position to complete the blind. There are indications for both in training, in competition, depending on the blind, the dog's level of experience and the dog's response to previous casts.
Not all blinds should be approached perfectly "head on".( unless you had a poor set of land marks).

Tim

 

[DL]

That sounds like a really good explanation to me. I’ll adopt that one. Thanks

 

[2tall]

An anecdotal story from Goofy Gooser..

I attended an HRC Finished test. The test was setup on a river channel. The long bird was bird 2 of a triple (long memory).. The bird was thrown on the other side of the river channel, that had strong current. the dog had to cross that fairly wide channel, then beach,,and make retrieve.. The current drifted the dog well down stream and well off line to the mark.. The mark landed in a secluded cove as I remember, and bird stayed put.. The other two marks were close,and on the near side of the channel .

So , dogs would be sent to long bird, dogs would drift down stream. it was surprising how many dogs kept their orientation, as they beach, and came back up the island and into the cove where the bird was.. BUT, some dogs ,on the return, would come straight back into the current,, and agin be swept down river, or,, the would turn directly into the current and swim, but gain no ground. Basically stuck spinning their wheels.. eventually dogs would drift , then makeit to near bank,but had to make a tough journey back up the bank through dense ver, andunpleasant conditions.

What many handelrs did was,,, when the dog picked up the bird, and came onto the center of the island, handlers would blow a whistlle, and cast the dog up the island on dry ground, heading up stream from the line on opposite side of channel... When the dog was at a point where handler guessed how the dog would drift back to close proximity of the line,, they sat the dog on the island again,, then cast them into the water... dog would re enter the water, handler would give a come in whistle.. The dog would be well upstream. and easily drift back into the orignal entry point in front of line. All this, with bird in mouth..

Disciplined casting defined!

You had to be way out west to know how real this scenario is!

 

[paul young]

I ran a very similar scenario in 1992 with my first dog, Sarah, at the northeast NAHRA Regional Intermediate test on the Wallkill River in New Jersey.
It's a real hunting scenario because so many of us hunt ducks on swift flowing rivers everywhere in this country. Especially late in the season, when the ponds and lakes can be iced over. You can also get this situation when hunting in tidal creeks.

 

[Zach Fisher]

Unless you can raise your hand straight up in front of your face...you're giving a very shallow slice either to the right or left.
I remember reading about a handler in a National stepping to the left and giving a straight up right arm cast to get the thinnest possible slice.