[dorkweed]

Depends on the club. I have ran with a couple clubs that were made up of older women with dogs that were of unknown origin that ran as performance listed. They just enjoyed the dog and running HRC was an avenue they could actually pursue with their dog even though they can't title. They had never operated a shotgun in their life, let alone hunted.

Most of these dogs were some sort of large show style golden retriever that would not swim in the water. They will make laps around the pond as the handler begs them to get in the water. One test I saw the poor bird boy would have to get a jon boat off the side of the bank to go retrieve the splash bird. Talk about time consuming. 6pm by the time the last dog runs in a 30 dog seasoned test. Miserable day that moves like molasses. All of them run in the afternoon too instead of calling it quits after bombing the morning test

Been there and done that at "seasoned" as well as at "started"!!

 

[drunkenpoacher]

Most of these dogs were some sort of large show style golden retriever that would not swim in the water. They will make laps around the pond as the handler begs them to get in the water. One test I saw the poor bird boy would have to get a jon boat off the side of the bank to go retrieve the splash bird. Talk about time consuming. 6pm by the time the last dog runs in a 30 dog seasoned test. Miserable day that moves like molasses. All of them run in the afternoon too instead of calling it quits after bombing the morning test

Two things were needed. A good pick up dog and at least one judge with the balls to politely tell the handler they are out and have to call in their dog.
Why torture the people volunteering to help because of untrained dogs that don't want to be there?

 

[J. Marti]

That’s all the information I have from the “horses mouth” if you will
We won’t know for sure untill official minutes and vote results get posted on HRC website for 2020 national meeting..… I can not nor will I post anymore!
I suggest if you do, only post confirmed information, or I’m sure this thread will be locked also…

Thanks for caring enough about the sport to do this. Appreciated by me.

 

[J. Marti]

I have hunted since I was a teenager. I have upland/waterfowl hunted in 2 countries and 8 states. I NEVER hunt with a pump. NEVER. So, getting used to a pump is indeed "practice." And different guns have different safety positions, different levels of dirtiness, different levels of "shuckiness", and different levels of spring resistance.

Plus putting a primed hull into the chamber is way different from a real shotgun shell. A primed hull can actually stick to your fingers because it is so light and has a lot of sticky friction. I tried putting a primed hull in the other day and it stuck to my fingers. (Probably my magnetic personality.) A primed hull does not have the weight to center itself in a chamber as a loaded shotgun shell does so that takes a couple of loadings to get use to, too.

I totally respect and agree with Jim Kwick's post to practice and get used to that particular gun.

 

[Tobias]

Depends on the club. I have ran with a couple clubs that were made up of older women with dogs that were of unknown origin that ran as performance listed. They just enjoyed the dog and running HRC was an avenue they could actually pursue with their dog even though they can't title. They had never operated a shotgun in their life, let alone hunted.

Most of these dogs were some sort of large show style golden retriever that would not swim in the water. They will make laps around the pond as the handler begs them to get in the water. One test I saw the poor bird boy would have to get a jon boat off the side of the bank to go retrieve the splash bird. Talk about time consuming. 6pm by the time the last dog runs in a 30 dog seasoned test. Miserable day that moves like molasses. All of them run in the afternoon too instead of calling it quits after bombing the morning test

I am going to go out on a limb here.

First off - awesome that 'older women' are wanting to do things with their 'unresgistered' dogs! That is how I started (although I was not 'older' LMAO)

You mention a couple of clubs made up of these women.... what does that mean? Does that mean they started the club? They are part of the board? They help run events? or are just members? Or just that they are time suckers and don't deserve to run their dogs?

Second - did anyone or has anyone ever offered to have offer to help them become more comfortable with a firearm? Or offered to take them hunting? (assuming they'd want to go, since they are attending a hunt test which uses dead ducks). We need more women hunters. Far better than having them become anti-hunters.

Third - the rules state that dogs may run out of contention. Not sure what the rules state about changing the marks for the dogs running out of contention, or how dogs can be helped (ie throwing a rock, if available or even changing the mark slightly by hand throwing for instance). And it surprises me there was no pick up dog available.

 

[Kurtr1979]

Our club always plans a pick up dog for started maybe needed one once for seasoned. Seen one finished mark that needed picked up this weekend when the dog broke and was pulled not allowing it to get the bird but judge had his dog so it was quick. We were done by 4 with all stakes both days with 2 full flights in finished and full seasoned and 30 some started dogs. Picked up and trailer loaded and on the road by 5 on Sunday. I got to marshal my finished flight with Joe Perron and Mr. Bill Autrey and it was awesome to visit and watch and learn from those two. Seeing Mr. Bill run with out the use of any voice is amazing. It was a good weekend went 2 for 2 and came home with our HRCH.

 

[fishduck]

Our club always plans a pick up dog for started maybe needed one once for seasoned. Seen one finished mark that needed picked up this weekend when the dog broke and was pulled not allowing it to get the bird but judge had his dog so it was quick. We were done by 4 with all stakes both days with 2 full flights in finished and full seasoned and 30 some started dogs. Picked up and trailer loaded and on the road by 5 on Sunday. I got to marshal my finished flight with Joe Perron and Mr. Bill Autrey and it was awesome to visit and watch and learn from those two. Seeing Mr. Bill run with out the use of any voice is amazing. It was a good weekend went 2 for 2 and came home with our HRCH.

Marshalling a flight with Joe Perron and Bill Autrey is truly a pleasure. They both will work hard to make the test run smoothly. If you pay attention, you will learn a lot.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

the rules state that dogs may run out of contention.

I knew that people could continue to run after being told their dog could not get a pass. I had assumed that meant in the next test or tests. Does the rule book state how long a dog must be allowed to hunt (or possibly not hunt) for a mark? Do the judges have the discretion to tell a handler to pick up their dog when it has failed a test?

 

[fishduck]

HRC recommends that a judge inform a handler when the dog has failed. Also to advise the handler to pick up the dog when it is creating bad habits. Other than a pickup dog, which should be there anyway, I don't understand the angst.

If you don't like watching a dog out of contention run in the next series, there is a venue for that. They wear black or white coats and have callbacks. Both are a lot of fun. The ability to run the second series after failing is one major difference. All the venues are in need of judges.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

I don't understand the angst.

Just asking about the rules, thanks for clarifying.
I makes no difference to me if dogs run when out of contention.

 

[cd2]

I am going to go out on a limb here.

First off - awesome that 'older women' are wanting to do things with their 'unresgistered' dogs! That is how I started (although I was not 'older' LMAO)

You mention a couple of clubs made up of these women.... what does that mean? Does that mean they started the club? They are part of the board? They help run events? or are just members? Or just that they are time suckers and don't deserve to run their dogs?

Second - did anyone or has anyone ever offered to have offer to help them become more comfortable with a firearm? Or offered to take them hunting? (assuming they'd want to go, since they are attending a hunt test which uses dead ducks). We need more women hunters. Far better than having them become anti-hunters.

Third - the rules state that dogs may run out of contention. Not sure what the rules state about changing the marks for the dogs running out of contention, or how dogs can be helped (ie throwing a rock, if available or even changing the mark slightly by hand throwing for instance). And it surprises me there was no pick up dog available.

I'm not mad at those people at all, I think its great they have an avenue to enjoy time with their dogs. My understanding is those women make up the majority of the club membership.

If they want to drive 7 hours to where I'm from I would be glad to take them hunting. I agree its much better than them becoming anti hunters.

I don't think the rules allow any help on the marks, but if you are needing help on the marks should the dog be in that series? I think most of these dogs should have been running in started but we were in seasoned.

I only wish I had known that was how the day was going to go before I made the trip. I just looked back and it was actually a 24 dog seasoned series. I expected to be done by 2 or 3 pm on Sunday and then make the 7 hour drive back home Sunday evening due to work obligations Monday. We didn't get out of there until 6pm and by the time we stopped for gas and food it was 2 am when we got home. Made for an early Monday morning when the 5:30 alarm went off lol. It taught me a lesson and sometimes you have to learn the hard way!

 

[22899]

Another aspect to remember is that with a Started test. The dog isn’t required to be steady. The handler may hold/ gently restrain the dog. By rule the handler in this instance, can NOT operate/ shoot the shotgun. An approved “ gunner” shoots the birds for the started dog. So, gun issues for the “ old ladies with show type dogs” isn’t an issue.
Yes , started handlers may CHOOSE to handle then, but then will be judged on steadiness, to the same standards as the upper levels of the venue. If the dog breaks, it will fail the test. (A controlled break will not fail the dog)
Started judges are instructed to strongly suggest to Started handlers at Handlers meetings to NOT choose to the Handel the gun. It is explained the team won’t receive any bonus points for handling the gun, in fact the Started handler will then be judged on their gun safety and handling.
Started Judges are instructed to discourage Started handlers from handling the gun..
Again, in a Started test , the gun is not an issue for the handler.
Typically, not always, Judges judging a test are people who are going to run their own personal dog in upper levels of the next days
(or prior days tests.)Most instances they have their own dogs in their trucks at test. A pick up dog is usually available. Most experienced Started judges understand the importance of a pick up dog at Started Water tests..

 

[22899]

One last thing, then I’ll drop off again.
At the required “safety briefing at the handlers meeting of a test. The gun that is going to be provided at the line will be shown to all handlers . Just for example discussion , let’s say it’s an 870.
All major parts of the gun the handler will need to operate will be discussed. How to properly load the gun, the location of the safety, and when the safety is in the “on” position.
They will talk about when operating the guns action,to eject a spent popper, to work the action with good force! Work it like you mean it. They also show how to PROPERLY LOAD the gun. For example.
First confirm the gun is unloaded. Then point the muzzle in a safe direction. And with the safety in the “On” position,,,,,,
The poppers are inserted into the magazine tube, the action operated one time by depressing the action release lever,to chamber a round. The gun is now loaded, and the safety only comes off when the bird is in the air., and you are going to shoot.
The Judge will ask if there is any questions, and also ask if there are handlers unfamiliar with the provided gun .
It has been my experience if there is a person who is unfamiliar with the gun , typically,,an approved gunner would take the person aside and give specific instruction , let them physically operate an unloaded guns action, going through all the steps, BEFORE that handler comes to the line…
It has been my experience that Judges and Marshals and test chair personnel go out of their way to accommodate new handlers…
As stated early in the thread though, practice WITH A GUN AND GAUGE THAT IS MOST COMMONLY PROVIDED, is best most responsible preparation for the test.
Not much different than practicing Steadiness for a test that requires a dog to be steady.
Also note… ALL HRC judges and gunners are required to have a hunters safety certificate, handlers are strongly encouraged to possess the same.
Most all hunter safety courses require a live range test to obtain certificate. It will prepare you for safe gun operation, and in many cases let you fire different action types of .22 caliber rifles

 

[22899]

Bottom line.
As you have read, Merideth finally contacted her regions rep or some official, and has written permission and approval to use her primer only poppers.
She accomplished this even though we have read what the President of HRC has stated in email about personal ammo.
The reason may be because, the policy change that was voted on (presumably passed) this past June , that specific information hasn’t been passed on to all Judges and region reps, nor has it been publicly posted on HRC’s web page as “Official Rule”.
I’m sure the reason President didnt confirm if the passage I sent him was indeed voted on and PASSED, was because he wouldn’t want his region reps and Judges to discover outcome on a silly internet sight.
I will also say, the more I looked into it, the major concern and discussions with me from some of the reps I contacted, that currently( before the results of last meeting this past June) the issue with non factory poppers has nothing really to do with HRC’s policy, but rather each clubs liability insurance. Supposedly some clubs have been told by their INSURANCE co that non factory or reloaded ammunition (poppers) would either immediately cancel coverage Orrrrr increase premiums substantially.
I didn’t know clubs purchase liability coverage.
It sounds like it varies from state to state ( region to region). , so I wonder if some rule needed to be passed so as not to put SOME clubs in danger of loosing coverage, and possibly loosing specific clubs.. purely speculation on my part, and I will surprise you all I ain’t the most intelligent fruit on the tree.
Merideth will run her test with her own gun! I bet she has the time of her life!
That’s what most important..
But,,, changes may be in the future! We won’t know for awhile…

 

[22899]

Hrc rule book says you can use your own gun once approved.
Consider:
IF
Rule is passed you ”can NOT bring your own shells”

You can bring your own gun to test for approval. If your Gun is a 20 ga, or any other gauge the club doesn’t have new factory primed poppers or hulls for, your gun won’t be approved !
They ain’t got no bullets fer it!!
Again, speculation on my part.

most common gun (exclusively used in my experiences) is an 870 .
Exclusively used gauge is 12.

If you were to bring your own gun, any make any action,and it is a 12 ga, and pretty much a given that’s the primer only poppers being provided at test,Your gun ,if approved safe and in good operating condition ,will be blessed for your use..

 

[22899]

Maybe

some clubs MIGHT have a cut stock 20 ga for kids and women. Possibly an 870( consistency). They provide 20 ga factory new primer only poppers or primed hulls ( with rolled edge).
There will be a gun and poppers provided for them.
If they wanted to bring their own gun, and it was a 20 gauge and in good operating condition if your gun was approved,,, you could use your gun at that test…

ISO 9002

 

[22899]

Phone call to clubs ht chair .

problem right now( currently) is availability of new factory primed poppers or hulls with rolled edge.

maybe supply issues will improve..

 

[22899]

Another solution . One I would hate to see happen,,,, HRC would get rid of the real gun, and supply a prop!
That game already exists.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

One I would hate to see happen,,,, HRC would get rid of the real gun, and supply a prop!

Yea, without the pop of that 209 primer it's a totally different game.

 

[DavidC]

Yea, without the pop of that 209 primer it's a totally different game.

I went through all the HRC levels with my first dog in the mid-90s. We used FT poppers or some form of home brew versions. That's one of the many reasons I can't hear cr@p now. We also used shackled ducks, but that disappeared rather quicky, along with pigeons on the land tests.