With the thread about "Dream puppies", there is a lot of talk about very popular, great dogs from the past. My question is, Do you think if some of these exact dogs were here, now, running todays field trials, that they would be as successful as they were in their day? With the advances in training tools and methods, don't you think the modern field trial dog can actually do more than a dog from 30 or 40 years ago? It may be a dumb question, but I would like to see some input from some of the "old timers" that may have seen some of those popular dogs from the past.
Past FC AFC dogs
labman52738
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With the thread about "Dream puppies", there is a lot of talk about very popular, great dogs from the past. My question is, Do you think if some of these exact dogs were here, now, running todays field trials, that they would be as successful as they were in their day? With the advances in training tools and methods, don't you think the modern field trial dog can actually do more than a dog from 30 or 40 years ago? It may be a dumb question, but I would like to see some input from some of the "old timers" that may have seen some of those popular dogs from the past.
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This is all my opinion and observation.......Modern day training tools and methods do not make the difference.
The strength of todays pedigree is the difference. In the beginning great dogs of the past were great dogs in a great deal of their own making.
Great dogs today are a combination of great dogs from the past. Each generation is stronger and stronger. The breeding is much more selective. Just 15 years ago more commonly breedings were made up of a non-titled bitch with a good pedigree bred to a titled male. Now a great percentage of breedings in field trial are titled bitches bred to titled males. Serious field trialers wont even consider a non-titled dam unless they are a proven producer.
Thru more selective breeding the odds of getting a good dog have increased.
It used to be a positive outcome if one pup of a litter was competitive. Now several siblings and sometimes entire litters are more frequently becoming competitive as well as repeat breedings.
The strength of todays pedigree is the difference. In the beginning great dogs of the past were great dogs in a great deal of their own making.
Great dogs today are a combination of great dogs from the past. Each generation is stronger and stronger. The breeding is much more selective. Just 15 years ago more commonly breedings were made up of a non-titled bitch with a good pedigree bred to a titled male. Now a great percentage of breedings in field trial are titled bitches bred to titled males. Serious field trialers wont even consider a non-titled dam unless they are a proven producer.
Thru more selective breeding the odds of getting a good dog have increased.
It used to be a positive outcome if one pup of a litter was competitive. Now several siblings and sometimes entire litters are more frequently becoming competitive as well as repeat breedings.
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The dogs of 30-40 years ago that played the game at the highest levels (FC.AFC. finishing Nationals...) would still be major players in today's game.
The game then and now involves marking, memory and control.
We have contrived more demanding test due to the advances in training methods and technology. The dogs of past had the brain power to handle these demands.
If anything many of these past greats may surpass the marking ability of today's dog. In years past handlers did not give much help to dogs at the line when sending on marks. 2 sided dogs, 1* and 2** selection,and even lining on marks are relatively recent skills we use to help dogs on marks.
JMO
Tim
The game then and now involves marking, memory and control.
We have contrived more demanding test due to the advances in training methods and technology. The dogs of past had the brain power to handle these demands.
If anything many of these past greats may surpass the marking ability of today's dog. In years past handlers did not give much help to dogs at the line when sending on marks. 2 sided dogs, 1* and 2** selection,and even lining on marks are relatively recent skills we use to help dogs on marks.
JMO
Tim
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I do agree with that. I occasionally train with a few people from the past era. They handle their dogs the same today as they did 40 years ago.... come to the line and call for the birds, send for a bird, take the bird and send for another.
The dog is entirely responsible for the job of marking. And it works, they are successful.
JKL,
I see your point ( I think) and agree that the odds of getting a good pup are higher but, are they any better, dog for dog. Like I said I agree with the percentages and what not but is the dog of today better than the dog of yesteryear with the same training tools and the knowledge on of how to get the dog their?
Marty
I see your point ( I think) and agree that the odds of getting a good pup are higher but, are they any better, dog for dog. Like I said I agree with the percentages and what not but is the dog of today better than the dog of yesteryear with the same training tools and the knowledge on of how to get the dog their?
Marty
Titled bitches are still pretty rare, and their owners still don't want to take them out of training during their prime competitive/breeding years. For those reasons I take issue with you saying that "Now a great percentage of breedings in FT are titled bitches bred to titled males".
There still just aren't that many FC-AFC X FC-AFC breedings around!!
I will name a few of the dogs I've seen run that could compete anytime. Butte Blue Moon, Grady's Shadee Ladee, Michelle, Beavertail's Gentleman Sam, Code Blue are examples of dogs from all eras that would compete in any venue. & I've left some out!!
IMO - The overlap of popular studs & the ability to move dogs around through air travel & frozen semen have been a detriment to the sport. In the days before travel was so easy you could generally watch a dog run & pick the area of the country where they had originated. This created strong local bloodlines that were fairly true to type. Now the idea of instant credibility by having a pup from so & so is more important than a thorough job of research in picking a pup. This has diluted a person's choices. The stud dogs I see touted on these boards are dogs that I have run against & trained around. Other than Code Blue I wouldn't take a pup from them if someone else was willing to pay expenses till they got their 1st licensed FT placement. & it would have to be a bitch of my choice. I would be more interested in what was behind the bitch than the bitch herself.
In the old days there were a lot less dogs, people in general were more pleasant, you could find places to exercise your dogs, the cost was relative to the times. The training methods are much more sophisticated because there is a chance for many to make a very good living training dogs successfully. Because there are more dogs - there is naturally more good dogs. Watch your trials - the same 20% will generally be in the last series in most trials - no different than it was in the old days just larger numbers.
I would be glad to take any of the dogs I mentioned above & run every weekend.
IMO - The overlap of popular studs & the ability to move dogs around through air travel & frozen semen have been a detriment to the sport. In the days before travel was so easy you could generally watch a dog run & pick the area of the country where they had originated. This created strong local bloodlines that were fairly true to type. Now the idea of instant credibility by having a pup from so & so is more important than a thorough job of research in picking a pup. This has diluted a person's choices. The stud dogs I see touted on these boards are dogs that I have run against & trained around. Other than Code Blue I wouldn't take a pup from them if someone else was willing to pay expenses till they got their 1st licensed FT placement. & it would have to be a bitch of my choice. I would be more interested in what was behind the bitch than the bitch herself.
In the old days there were a lot less dogs, people in general were more pleasant, you could find places to exercise your dogs, the cost was relative to the times. The training methods are much more sophisticated because there is a chance for many to make a very good living training dogs successfully. Because there are more dogs - there is naturally more good dogs. Watch your trials - the same 20% will generally be in the last series in most trials - no different than it was in the old days just larger numbers.
I would be glad to take any of the dogs I mentioned above & run every weekend.
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If you look at the dogs at the top today, there are quite a few more today from titled bitches than years ago. They may be FC AFC or MH, either way they are field proven.
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Looking at the most recent published Purina list for Open dogs, 22 dogs are listed with 10 or more Open points in 2007, 17 are from breeding with both parents titled, 5 have non-titled dams.
The Purina list for Amateur dogs has 21 dogs listed with 10 or more Amateur points in 2007. 14 have both parents titled, 7 have non-titled dams.
I think there are more titled to titled breedings than you are aware of, or maybe there are just more competitive dogs from titled to titled breedings than other.
Either way, I think the pedigrees are overall stronger today.
The Purina list for Amateur dogs has 21 dogs listed with 10 or more Amateur points in 2007. 14 have both parents titled, 7 have non-titled dams.
I think there are more titled to titled breedings than you are aware of, or maybe there are just more competitive dogs from titled to titled breedings than other.
Either way, I think the pedigrees are overall stronger today.
If you are going to include hunt test titles, then obviously there are more breedings where both parents are titled.
First off, hunt test titles didn't exist 25 years ago.
Secondly hunt test titles are a whole lot easier to come by than field trial titles. They don't exactly give away FC-AFC' titles now do they?
I thyink it goes without saying that a pup out of an FC-AFC bitch has a better chance of titling, than out of a non titled bitch, or for that matter to a lesser degree out of a hunt test titled bitch.
Additionally I still say there just aren't a whole lot of FC-AFC bitch litters; for the reasons stated in my earlier post
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I disagree with alot of what JKL is saying. With the variable intensity of the e-collar, we have alot of dogs becoming FC/AFC today that probably would not have made it out of the derby in the past. The dogs of the past had to handle alot more pressure and still be able to focus. I believe that a good percentage of those dogs would have done fine with todays tests and training. The main reason that the ability to breed more FCXFC's are because of advancements in reproduction methods. There were still alot of FC's bred to each other and most of those breedings were arranged at the nationals. I actually believe that yesterdays dogs were better markers. Because I have seen the testing go away from marking ability to more of "line running" and what time of day you get to run type of tests.
The only way we would find out is if we ever get the ability to clone dogs. Wow think of that sci-fi.......Folks selling clones of their great dogs instead of doing new breedings.
getting ready for snow storm regards,
LT
The only way we would find out is if we ever get the ability to clone dogs. Wow think of that sci-fi.......Folks selling clones of their great dogs instead of doing new breedings.
getting ready for snow storm regards,
LT
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What I am referrring to is today many of the "marking" tests are setup to test the ability of the dog to take and carry a line. The variable intensity e-collar has allowed alot of dogs to learn this that would not have been able to in the past. Much softer dogs are having success that would not have made it before. Training methods have greatly impacted this sport and infact there are more dogs being bred today that would not have been given consideration in the past because they would not have succeeded.
LT
LT
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And the basis for this theory is?..........
I don't know how long you have been competing in field trials, what your reference point is for "many of the marking tests", how many trials you run each year, and in/on what circuits you run but I think that generally marking tests are much more difficult today
A well conceived mark is one wherein the dog cannot find the bird by simply running a straight line
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I wasn't around a hundred years ago so I'm not going to argue this with Ed or Marvin. What I will share is this. A year before he died I sat with Bob Pepper watching a master test run on his ponds. He talked about the old days when he ran dogs and as we watched dog after dog smack the triple on water he made this comment.
"Back in my day none of the dogs would have completed this. I can tell ya this, Jigg's wouldn't have done this test."
Who am I to argue?
/Paul
"Back in my day none of the dogs would have completed this. I can tell ya this, Jigg's wouldn't have done this test."
Who am I to argue?
/Paul
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Ed,
What I am referring to is today's tests are tighter, longer and much more concept oriented. I am NOT saying that today's tests are easier but much harder. And the reason the dogs are able to do them is because of the training methods and equipment we are using today. I disagree with JKL's premise that it is all because of the breeding.
Paul,
It would be interesting to see Jigg's worked with today's methods and the e-collar of today.
LT
What I am referring to is today's tests are tighter, longer and much more concept oriented. I am NOT saying that today's tests are easier but much harder. And the reason the dogs are able to do them is because of the training methods and equipment we are using today. I disagree with JKL's premise that it is all because of the breeding.
Paul,
It would be interesting to see Jigg's worked with today's methods and the e-collar of today.
LT
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I have a good one. If you could clone a dog from lets say 10 years ago or before and see how they would do with todays training and tests. Who would you want?
LT
LT
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