[GulfCoast]

At the judges seminar I attended, Jerry Mann repeatedly made the point that there is no difference in Jr and MH marks, other than the number on the ground before you release the dog.

 

[Terry Thomas]

About the only diference I make between Junior mark and Master marks is I won't throw a cheaty mark at Junior dogs. Other than that a Junior dog should be able to pick up any mark thrown for a Master dog just as long as it's thrown as a single.

 

[camhuff]

Ok Folks, What I took the judge to mean was that if all four marks were 100yds are less and in the wide open then, all the dogs would probably pass, so they would have at least one mark that incorporated terrain or something that would give some of the dogs trouble. After all if all the dogs pass then what does a title mean. Now that we are training better dogs the marks are getting harder. But I differ with Jerry Mann in that there is no difference in a Jr vs MH marks. Would Jerry throw a 1yr old dog a bird 60yrs across a pond, drive out on the far bank drive up hill 40yrs in knee high grass with a 20mph cross wind. I wouldn't just yet at that stage unless I trained 24-7 and he had seen hundreds of marks to build up to that.

 

[Granddaddy]

That said (regarding KG's post above), I do think judges should have an understanding of the normal training progression of young dogs and avoid set-ups that obviously tend to erode young dog training. An example might be a cheaty water mark where a young dog can be rewarded by running the bank. On the other hand, I have no issue with the length of junior marks or even senior blinds relative to master marks & blinds. What should be differentiated is the judging std relative to passing junior work versus senior or master.

 

[K G]

I would hope ANYONE/EVERYONE that judges Junior dogs (and the other levels as well) would take into consideration the TECHNICAL aspects of marks that they set up. Cheaty water marks, "in line" marks, marks too close together without completely hiding the other station....issues that an inexperienced dog, by definition a Junior dog, would have trouble with that help negate the judgement of marking, really shouldn't happen in Junior.

The "Standard" doesn't vary between Junior, Senior, and Master. WHAT IS ASKED OF THE DOG at each level is what varies.

kg

 

[Granddaddy]

....The "Standard" doesn't vary between Junior, Senior, and Master. WHAT IS ASKED OF THE DOG at each level is what varies.

kg

Thanks for the wording clarification - that's what I meant by a "different std". But I think it not uncommon that some judges don't understand how to vary what or how they judge relative to the different test levels. Senior tests in particular seem to vary widely in terms of judging against the std. with some apparently thinking a senior dog must be almost able to do master work while others seem to take the view these are dogs just getting out of junor tests. I recognize the difficulty in setting/judging a test for senior level dogs but it can still be frustratingly easy or very difficult for senior dogs & their handlers.

 

[K G]

Thanks for the wording clarification - that's what I meant by a "different std". But I think it not uncommon that some judges don't understand how to vary what or how they judge relative to the different test levels. Senior tests in particular seem to vary widely in terms of judging against the std. with some apparently thinking a senior dog must be almost able to do master work while others seem to take the view these are dogs just getting out of junor tests. I recognize the difficulty in setting/judging a test for senior level dogs but it can still be frustratingly easy or very difficult for senior dogs & their handlers.

I agree with this 100%, especially the sentence in bold type.

kg

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

About the only diference I make between Junior mark and Master marks is I won't throw a cheaty mark at Junior dogs. Other than that a Junior dog should be able to pick up any mark thrown for a Master dog just as long as it's thrown as a single.

Terry,
I made this same statement a while ago. I even set up a poll as I recall. I was seriously thumpulated by the masses who did not see it this way. The thumpulating did not change my opinion. I still maintain than any dog that HAS it's JH (not some puppy running it's first test) that any JH dog should be able to do any mark in a master test as a single. I feel this way because when you walk up to any given field and think about your bird placement, a good mark is a good mark is a good mark! I also understand there is a vast difference in what we all consider a "Good Mark". I have proven this point in practice while lugging equipment and setting up fields for judges. A JH level dog off my truck has been used as a "set up dog" not an "Official test dog" (horse of a different color here) as a set up dog, doing the marks as singles on more than one occasion because it was right there and ready to help the judges see how the marks would look. It still blows my mind that the rest of the world does not agree with me, but I have learned to live with that.
KNB

 

[Ron in Portland]

i am new to the game and just started running hunt test (have run 3 junior test). I was told the junior test is to be set up to identify a dog's marking ability. With that said i think that it is counter-productive to allow handling on a junior mark. If the dog has to handle then obviously it didn't mark well. Could someone give me an explanation for this.

Thanks
Chad

Back to the original question...

I think it comes down to this, just because it didn't mark well, doesn't mean it didn't mark. If the dog nails three marks, goes just upwind up the fourth and then puts on a BIG inexperienced hunt, and is handled back to the bird, if the other three marks (or better) were judged as 7, and this was a 1, that still averages over 5 for marking. Obviously, it has to pick up the score elsewhere to pass.

I think allowing the one handle makes allowances for a good dog that makes a mistake while a poorly marking dog will show itself on more than one mark. It also lets the judges have an opportunity to judge. If the dog comes back with all four birds, then it's up to them to evaluate the marking ability.

On a water mark (80 yard swim to far bank, crosswind, bird is a couple yards from shore) one dog beaches five yards downwind, winds the bird and picks it right up and comes back. Another dog beaches five yards upwind, doesn't wind bird and puts on an inexperienced hunt that takes it 30 yards up the bank until it needs a come-in whistle and over cast to the bird. How can you say one dog marked it and the other didn't? I don't think you can based on just that one mark. How do you know the first dog wasn't headed up the bank too? However, you should be able to find out over four marks.

 

[Bob Gutermuth]

What has not been mentioned is the factors that are present in a mark, relative to test level. I would expect a junior dog to push thru a thin line of cover, or across 4 wheeler tracks, or thru a slight cover change. I would not ask a junior dog to deal with stiff crosswinds, thick cover, a big ditch, a large deadfall, a converging bird on the previous fall etc. Same with the water, I am not about to ask a junior dog to deal with a long, or angled entry or push thru a platoon of decoys as a few examples. Junior tests are supposed to be basic tests, not gimmies, nor marks of master difficulty thrown as singles.

 

[id hntr]

I was doing a hunt test in the Utah mountains with lots of sage brush. I was one of the last to run and my bird landed in the middle of a large sage brush. It was extremely dry and the sage brush kills the scent. In addition my bird was about 15 feet away from the other falls. When my dog went to the bird, he couldn't figure it out (because it was in the brush). He then wanted to go to the scent of the other 20 birds fall. I had to handle him back and basically push him through the brush. The judges said for me to keep it clean and handle him all the way through. So I do feel there are instances where a handle might be appropriate if it is clean.

 

[Eric Johnson]

I think it comes down to this, just because it didn't mark well, doesn't mean it didn't mark. If the dog nails three marks, goes just upwind up the fourth and then puts on a BIG inexperienced hunt, and is handled back to the bird, if the other three marks (or better) were judged as 7, and this was a 1, that still averages over 5 for marking. Obviously, it has to pick up the score elsewhere to pass.

Except that the guidance from AKC says...

"No credit in Marking shall be given if the dog fails to go to the area, establish a hunt
and find the bird;" (Regulations & Guidelines for AKC® Hunting Tests for Retrievers, page 42 and it's in bold face too)

For this reason you would score the dog 0 (not 1) on the 4th mark and divide the marking scores by four. If the dog handled quickly and without error you could then score a blind for the Jr. dog and give it high marks on Trainability.

Eric

 

[Golddogs]

Except that the guidance from AKC says...

"No credit in Marking shall be given if the dog fails to go to the area, establish a hunt
and find the bird;" (Regulations & Guidelines for AKC® Hunting Tests for Retrievers, page 42 and it's in bold face too)

For this reason you would score the dog 0 (not 1) on the 4th mark and divide the marking scores by four. If the dog handled quickly and without error you could then score a blind for the Jr. dog and give it high marks on Trainability.

Eric

If you score the dog a 0, he is done. ( presuming you both do this). You are misreading the sentence in this instance. The dog did go to the area of the fall, he just couldn't come up wit the bird. So a 1-4 may be in order depending how close to teh AOF he got.

In order to be scored as you quote, the dog must fail in all of all of those requirements.

 

[Swampcollie]

I think Eric was trying to say that the dog gets no credit or a non-score in marking for the bird on which it was handled, not a zero (that would infer dropping the dog).

 

[Eric Johnson]

Exactly. You don't actually score a "zero". You just don't add a score for marking on that mark and then divide by 4. In the example I think Ron said the dog had 7's and then the one busted mark. You'd divide 21 by 4 and get 5.25 for marking. Thus, the dog passes Marking and can, with high scores in Trainability, Perseverance and Courage, and Style, pass the overall test.

Therein perhaps lies the answer about why handling on one mark is allowed. If a dog scores acceptably of the other three marks and has high enough scores in the other categories, he can pass. A dog can do the same thing in Master and Senior. It would be unfair to hold the Jr. dog to a higher standard.

Eric

 

[Golddogs]

I think Eric was trying to say that the dog gets no credit or a non-score in marking for the bird on which it was handled, not a zero (that would infer dropping the dog).

That I could agree with.

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Can you use a choke chain in junior?

/Paul

 

[Swampcollie]

Can you use a choke chain in junior?

/Paul

See KG's Column in RFTN

 

[Bubba]

Can you use a choke chain in junior?

/Paul

Whadda pindecko

Bubba