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Thomas D

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Discussion starter · #1 ·
Dogs chasing and killing cattle are nothing new in the part of the world. People from town were constantly dumping dogs out in the country. We lost about a head or two cattle a year to dogs, had cattle run out of the fences where they became traffic hazards.

I think the owner’s of the dogs should be prosecuted....if he loved his animals so much why were they running lose like common curs? People like that cracker should be allowed to own an animal period.

And to the tourist "Absolutely unbelievable. That's . . . America for you. Guns!" GO THE HELL HOME if you don’t like it here.
 
Pennsylvania law provides as follows:

"§ 459-501. Killing dogs; dogs as nuisances

(a) Legal to kill certain dogs.--Any person may kill any dog which he sees in the act of pursuing or wounding or killing any domestic animal, wounding or killing other dogs, cats or household pets, or pursuing, wounding or attacking human beings, whether or not such a dog bears the license tag required by the provisions of this act. There shall be no liability on such persons in damages or otherwise for such killing."

I don't think this is unusual. As noted above, it make sense to keep our dogs under control.
 
Discussion starter · #4 ·
When I was 12 or 13 years old we had a Lab mix that I hunted phesants with in No Indiana.
We lived in the country and a guy about 1/2 mile away had sheep. He came to us one day and told us that our dog was running his sheep. My dad told me to keep the dog tied up, but I didn't. Several days later the guy came and told us he witnessed our dog killing one of his sheep and wanted paid and he would shoot the dog if it came back. My dad paid him and the dog was put down the next day. Dad said once they start killing, they will continue. Back then most people just let their dogs run loose, but took the responsibility for what they did. Dad said he would rather put the dog down humanely than having it shot to crawl off and die.

In this situation the dogs are in the field with the cattle. What does the owner think they were doing? Easy fix.......Don't like it....go home.

I just heard on the news that since the video was available the prosecutors were going to look at it for possible criminal charges.
 
There was no reason for the final shot after the shooter was clearly aware that the owner had arrived. Also the shooter is a liar if he said he thought they were wolves. My dad has cattle and although we have never done it, I can understand having to shoot dogs harrassing the cows, but not when they are already down and the owner is there trying to intervene. That last shot was just a "screw you" shot and my initial gut reaction (to the last shot) was one of wanting to kick the shooter's butt. That was total crap to shoot that dog again with the owner there begging him to stop.
 
The city of Elgin,Illinois has annexed property on two sides of our property for 900+ homes.On one side is a city park with a pond right up to our yard.I was thinking,good place to toss a few dummies at first before all the houses are built.Then I got to thinking about all the fertilizers they will be using,plus all that fresh turned soil(Blasto?).What really got me to just figure it wasn't going to be a good little training spot was a quick look at thier city codes.

Check this out:

L. No dogs shall be allowed in any of the parks except on leash. It is the duty of the director of parks and recreation or any park employee to remove and kill any dog running at large in any park.

http://www.sterlingcodifiers.com/IL/Elgin/index.htm 12.08.010 L
http://www.cityofelgin.org/
 
I wonder how many times they've been seen in that pasture before?

We may not have heard that part from anyone.

What's the third side of the story regards,
The shooter didn't say that. The shooter didn't say he had seen those dogs there before. If he said he'd seen them there repeatedly it would refute what the owner was saying that they had just gotten away from him about an hour before (as though he normally had them under control). The shooter didn't say that he had contacted and/or confronted/warned the owner before either, which would make it somewhat different...not that any of that would change my opinion about the continued shooting after the owner arrived.

Based on the info that has been provided, the shooter should be prosecuted for giving a false statement if nothing else. He knew they were not wolves as they were wearing collars (easily proved/confirmed/refuted by witnesses who helped the man load up his wounded dogs to take them to the vet). That story would fly better if it had been dark outside (aside from the fact that there are no wolves in Florida). The self defense story is proved bogus by the video as well. So, even if his shooting of the dogs was legal (probably was), he should be prosecuted for giving a false statement to the police. Personally, I would love to shove that gun up his butt.

He was also an idiot for doing it in front of witnesses. One of the reasons (aside from being a dog lover) that we would be hesitant to shoot a dog chasing cattle (or deer) on my dad's cattle farm is that if someone finds out or suspects that you shot their dog then there is a decent chance that some of your cows will be shot. There is no telling if the dog owner or some other misguided dog lover may drive by and sling some lead at those cows (BAD IDEA, illegal on many counts and certainly not something I would do or condone, but something that must beconsidered when you act as this man did). My uncle had an employee who confronted some people trespassing and fishing on his plantation when he first bought it. The employee did more than ask them to leave, he was verbally abusive. Soon afterwards, my unlce's barn burned to the ground and there was talk around town of who did it and why (the tresspassers), but nothing could be proven. Even when you are basically in the right and within the law, you must still consider the likely consequences of your actions. I always remember that when confronting trespassing "hunters" on my dad's farm. Be firm, but don't give them a reason to want to come back and shoot up the cattle or boobie-trap my deerstands.
 
It looks like the guy better hold on to the guns he has since he apparently is prohibited from buying more following a plea bargained settlement of an assault charge three years ago.
Nice. Classy guy, but we knew that when he kept shooting in the presence of the owner.
 
I think the owner’s of the dogs should be prosecuted....if he loved his animals so much why were they running lose like common curs?
So you've NEVER had a dog you love and care for get loose and out of your control for even a short time (owner says about an hour)? And you've owned dogs how long? I have known the gutwrenching feeling of having a lost dog. It took a couple of months to figure out that the stinking meter reader was leaving the gate open (hey wasn't it about a month since the last time he ran away and we found the gate open? I wonder if the meter was read today. Yep, it was). They were pissed when I locked the gates. The negotiated solution to that was that they put their own lock on the gate. I guess the act of having to unlock the gate was enough to remind the idiot to lock it back. That and what I promised to do if the idiot ever did it again.

I could cite other examples of how a responsible dog owner can lose control of his dog(s) from time to time, but you get the point. My last dog who lived a little over 11 years only ran away once and luckily he showed up in another neighborhood with a group of dogs (probably a female in heat in the group) and he came up to somebody who was nice enough to call me instead of doing something mean to my dog. My current dog is just over 3 and he has never been out of my control (or the control of my pro for the last few months), but I can't swear that he never will get temporarily out of my control. Can you 100% guarantee that your dogs will never get out of your control for an hour in their entire life? If they do, should they be shot and should you then be prosecuted?

And to the tourist "Absolutely unbelievable. That's . . . America for you. Guns!" GO THE HELL HOME if you don’t like it here.
I have to agree with you there.
 
It always amazes me how quickly people jump to conclusions over a news report and a youtube video... I'm just a bit more objective and not so blinded by emotion on this stuff as I take all media reports with a huge grain of salt.

The thing I find strange is that the reports said that more than one land/cattle owner asked this man to kill those dogs.? That could have happened in a minute or two but I wonder if it did? It sure seems as though there may have been standing orders resulting from previous harassment of those cattle. Maybe not from those same dogs, but who knows? I don't think we're hearing the whole thing. A lawyer being involved would keep the accused strictly to the point at hand, which was that he acted within the law. Going off on extraneous points to justify oneself when you have already won the arguement only opens doors to further accuations.

Also, did you notice the video piece starting out with a pretty picture of the guy's dog, and ending with a little cuddle on the couch with the owner? I see the dog lover's slant in the reporting and wonder what really happened, and whether or not we are hearing the whole story. We saw 45 seconds of film. This incident did not go down front to bak in 45 seconds.

Also, did you notice the owner so readily accepting his dog's fate? I wonder why that is because had they been my dogs I would have been on the guy like white on rice gun or not. He would have had to threaten to shoot me to prevent me from kicking the not out of him regardless of whether my dogs were right or wrong. At that point we would have had a whole new set of circumstances/problems to deal with.

I just wonder what really went on before this incident took place, that's all. Believe me I hate to see the guy's dogs get injured, off his property or not. I have a jack russell that could easily meet a similar fate if she got out of my control, and she has...
 
It always amazes me how quickly people jump to conclusions over a news report and a youtube video... I'm just a bit more objective and not so blinded by emotion on this stuff as I take all media reports with a huge grain of salt.
Yet you basically jumped to the conclusion or at least insinuated that these dogs had been there before in your first post on the subject.

The thing I find strange is that the reports said that more than one land/cattle owner asked this man to kill those dogs.? That could have happened in a minute or two but I wonder if it did?
Nope, it only says that the developer, Mr. Carter asked the shooter to shoot any dogs that were messing with the cows.

It sure seems as though there may have been standing orders resulting from previous harassment of those cattle. Maybe not from those same dogs, but who knows?
Yep, it sounds like standing orders from Mr. Carter who apparently perceived a threat or was just paranoid.

I don't think we're hearing the whole thing. A lawyer being involved would keep the accused strictly to the point at hand, which was that he acted within the law. Going off on extraneous points to justify oneself when you have already won the arguement only opens doors to further accuations.
Now that the video has surfaced and the owner alleges that the dogs were wearing collars (again, we don't know if this is true, but it is easily verifiable or refutable by the witnesses who helped him load his dogs in a vehicle for transport to the vet), the shooter's statements that he thought they were wolves (again, there aren't any freaking wolves in Florida and wolves don't wear tags) is clearly a lie and the self defense thing looks like a lie too. If it is legal to shoot dogs harassing livestock, why not just say I had been told to shoot dogs harrassing livestock and these dogs were harrassing the livestock. And again, why continue to shoot them after they are down and after the owner has arrived and is trying to rush to their aid?

Also, did you notice the video piece starting out with a pretty picture of the guy's dog, and ending with a little cuddle on the couch with the owner? I see the dog lover's slant in the reporting and wonder what really happened, and whether or not we are hearing the whole story. We saw 45 seconds of film. This incident did not go down front to bak in 45 seconds.
The news media packaged it with a picture of the dog at the beginning, true. As for the ending, it showed the owner with at least one of the dogs. It answers the question that any viewer would have..."are the dogs OK?" and was a reasonable way to wrap up the news clip IMO. I hope that the authorities and the attorneys for both sides (should their be civil action) have a copy of the full unedited film.

Also, did you notice the owner so readily accepting his dog's fate? I wonder why that is because had they been my dogs I would have been on the guy like white on rice gun or not. He would have had to threaten to shoot me to prevent me from kicking the not out of him regardless of whether my dogs were right or wrong. At that point we would have had a whole new set of circumstances/problems to deal with.
If I was the owner I would hope that as I rushed from shot dog to shot dog I would have been painfully aware that the shooter was armed and I was not and I would have been able to control my emotions enough to keep from getting myself shot (unarmed men lose gunfights with boring regularity). If I was armed (I'm a concealed carry permit holder and am frequently armed) and I was the dog owner and he shot that dog that was already down after I was already in the field, then things would have probably gone downhill fast. That is not something to be proud of, but is a fact and "heat of the moment" would have been a great and accurate defense. However, if I was unarmed I would hope that I would have enough sense to know that me being dead wasn't going to accomplish anything. I really don't think you can draw any conclusions from the fact that the owner, a presumably unarmed man was not willing to physically attack an armed man who was already slinging lead...except that the guy knew a losing battle when he saw one.

Again, there is no justification for the final shot and I really think the one dog who was shot while running past the shooter was coming to his owner who had arrived and was calling the dogs. I think that the shooter is a liar and that he lied in his police statement and that he needs to be prosecuted for that and any other laws he may have broken during the incident. I also think he needs one heck of a pine shampoo, but that is another matter.
 
Prosicute this gun toting idiot! I have seen the results of a pack of dogs killing one of my granddads calves- those dogs came back and he killed several of them. Unfortunately he could not find the owners as it seemed like these were dumped animals running in a pack. I would only shoot if the dogs actually attacked the calves- it seams like they knew who the owner was anyway- why not notify the owner so he can take extra steps to keep his dogs under control. For dogs that were not killing anything they can be shot with a pellet gun in the ass to teach them a lesson. But if the dogs are killers then it is buckshot out of a shotgun which ends the situation quickly. I have seen both sides- if the dogs are just funning with the cattle then sting them with a pellet gun and they will get the message. If the dogs are killing something ID them and make the owner pay double- yes that is the law here in CA- owner pays double for dogs killing livestock. And only at last resort after the dogs have killed or wounded livestock then by all means shoot to kill. What this guy did was crime- it looks like he could have called the dogs to him and put a lease on both of them instead of taking pot shots with his pistol. And for that last shot- if I was armed...well lets say it would have been an unfortunate accident or self defense...Incidently I am in China today and for lunch I pointed to a picture on the menu that looked good and my wife said you dont' want to eat that! You would be eating dog! I am glad I live in a country were dogs are pets and not on the menu. My wife said if her dogs ran off in the winter time they rarely returned home and likely ended up on someones table as a delicacy...
 
What amazes me is how many are posting after only watching the video and not reading the Orlando Sentinel article. The following is and excert from the article.

One of the witnesses reached Friday said Comins stepped in after bystanders at the edge of the pasture waited more than two hours for someone to rescue a newborn calf the dogs were trying to reach inside a circle of larger cows.

"I've had to shoot cattle, unfortunately, after they've been attacked like that by dogs," said Dave Tindall of Orlando. "What happened had to end the way it did. It had to be done for a defenseless animal that had no way of escaping those dogs. If night had fallen, they wouldn't have gone home hungry."

Cattle dont circle up for no reason. Dogs kill more cattle than coyotes and wolves combined and unlike the wild predetors which kill for survival dogs will kill just for the kill.
It is unfortunate but had the owner kept his dogs up they would not have been shot.
 
The last six shots were actually fired after the owner was there and calling his dogs (You can hear his whistles and the camera person saying "there's the owner.). Even though shot, the dogs were actually going towards their owner as the guy was firing. It will be interesting to see the results of the investigation now that the video has been published since it appears to contradict the shooter's public statements.
 
The last six shots were actually fired after the owner was there and calling his dogs (You can hear his whistles and the camera person saying "there's the owner.). Even though shot, the dogs were actually going towards their owner as the guy was firing. It will be interesting to see the results of the investigation now that the video has been published since it appears to contradict the shooter's public statements.
Exactly. It appears that the shooter had a "these dogs are going to die no matter what" attitude. The absolute only way that approach (they die no matter what) could be justified even in the owners presence IMO is if they had confronted the owner about it before and he had been defiant, with an I'll let my dogs do as I please attitude or if he had said the right things, but his dogs just kept coming back. Even then you could get animal control to put some serious fines on the guy and he would probably learn.
 
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