[Angie B]

This is what I don't get about the whole thing, this dog apparantly had 2 copies of gene, no clinical symptoms. Also appears to be dogs with carrier status only that collapse, if I am remembering the literature correctly. I also know of a dog with classic EIC episodes, the dog tested clear.

This is unlike CMN, where you either have it, or you don't, in clinical terms. I'm no geneticist, but this doesn't seem to be like the other autosomal recessive genes. Very confusing to me.

Exactly......

Something else to ponder. I have trained young dogs that show EIC symptoms when going through the stress of the yard, but once transition is done I never see it again. Or,,,, a dog that only shows symptoms when the owner runs it. I could get into the same dog all day with no issues, but when the owner comes around the dog is down in a heartbeat. The same dog 6 months later never shows another sign of EIC.

Bizzarre

Angie

 

[Angie B]

If you reread my initial posting you will see that the bitch was tested and found to be affected; I don't know why she was tested unless they already knew at least on parent was either a carrier or affected.

Sorry mis-read your post.. Didn't see the "but"....

Angie

 

[pupaloo]

If dogs with the genes for EIC might collapse, I want to know about it. I don't want to breed dogs with the best possible chance of collapsing. INFORMATION is not bad. Deciding to breed carriers or not, deciding to compete with an affected dog and see what happens-those are all decisions that can be made because the information is available. EIC might well turnout to be disease that needs two recessive genes to be possible, and have other factors that determine whether or not the dog is affected-it already appears that stress is a factor. Regardless-I want to know if the gene is present in any dog I consider buying, so that I can make informed decisions.

 

[Bud Bass]

Some are asking why some dogs show symptoms and some don't. From information I received from Susan Taylor, one of the problems they had early on in the research was with some dogs not showing symptoms. Read on some of the other replies. Different things trigger a colapse in different dogs, One guy says ducks and family are fine, but playing with the grand kids brings it on every time. My dog could not complete a triple without having a colapse. Some dogs are much more mellow and do not colapse at all, yet still carry both mutant genes. If you insist on breeding a dog with both mutant genes, the most important thing is who you sell the pups too, the pups will be 100% carriers. If you breed to a carrier, the pups will be 50% affected and 50% carriers. If your dog is a carrier and you breed to a clear, only 50% will be carriers, none affected. A better choice if you feel your magic formular must continue. Bud

 

[Montview]

If your dog is a carrier and you breed to a clear, only 50% will be carriers, none affected.

Just to clarify this with regards to percentages- it isn't that 50% of puppies in a litter will be carriers and 50% of puppies will be clear. The percentages actually refer to the chances of each puppy carrying something, based on which genes it gets. Each puppy has a 50% chance of being a carrier, regardless of the numbers in a litter and whatnot. A similar concept, but not quite the same and definitely not as "cut-and-dried." You could have a litter of 12 from a carrier-to-normal breeding and every single one could feasibly be clear (or carrier), depending on the luck of the draw with that 50:50 chance that each puppy could be clear (or a carrier).

 

[Howard N]

Each puppy has a 50% chance of being a carrier,

Yup, just like every puppy has a 50/50 chance of being male or female. Some litters overload on one or the other but over the long haul about as many girls are born as boys.

 

[Angie B]

Okay,,,, I know I should read all the material thoroughly on the subject which I admit I haven't.

But anyway, how is it that a dog that once had shown symptoms appears to never show them again?? Does the animal learn to manage the stress or better tolerates the stress so they never have a episode again??

Angie

 

[fishduck]

There are a myriad of causes which could cause symptoms similiar to EIC. Dehydration comes to mind also low blood potassium levels. A genetic problem isn't always the cause. That sucks because as we gain a better understanding of genetics we can pinpoint the dogs with familial problems. While other dogs may develop the same symptoms without the marker genes. I am not a geneticist and admit to limited knowledge on this subject. The literature would be a better place to learn more.

disclaimer: I am not blaming you for using cheap food or not providing adequate water only providing an alternate diagnosis for the same symptoms.

Mark L.

 

[pupaloo]

Okay,,,, I know I should read all the material thoroughly on the subject which I admit I haven't.

But anyway, how is it that a dog that once had shown symptoms appears to never show them again?? Does the animal learn to manage the stress or better tolerates the stress so they never have a episode again??

Angie

No one knows this-and we may never, completely. The test is to identify dogs who have the gene(s). Presence of two genes appears to be required for the dog to collapse. The trigger for the collapse is different for every dog, but stress/excitement of some kind is consistent as a trigger. Test scenarios, grandkids, upland hunting-whatever really excites the dog. Some dogs have a "mild" case, and can do a lot before a collapse. Some collapse as soon as the excitement starts. Maybe some, as you suggest, can learn to manage the stress-but I don't know if dogs have cognitive abilities about their bodies like that. Maybe over time, once people are finally willing to talk about affected dogs and their bloodlines, we will be able to determine if the triggers are things that run in families, or if it is truly random for each individual dog.

 

[jeff t.]

Julie, when you say pondering the results of carrier status, I assume that you mean..."if my dog is a carrier of a genetic disorder, how does that affect my decisions for that dog?"

From a performance perspective...I see no affect whatsoever

From a breeding perspective, it seems to me that having "carrier" status raises the bar significantly when deciding if a dog is of sufficient quality to be bred or not.

All other things being equal, a clear puppy is more desirable than a carrier puppy and it is easier to sell clear pups than carrier pups. For example, there have been threads on RTF describing the difficulty associated with placing pups with a CNM carrier parent.

If one of the parents is a carrier, it seems to me that the breeding needs to be truly outstanding and in demand to be sure all pups are easily placed.

The last thing I want to have happen when I breed is to have difficulty finding great homes for my puppies. I'll be focusing on sires that are CNM and EIC clear when evaluating sires for Sinner's litter. However, because she has been tested and is CNM and EIC clear, I won't rule out a sire that is a carrier if it is head a shoulders above the rest.

Jeff

 

[lilly]

I feel very strongly about breeding carriers. How can we clean up the problems within the breed if there is still litters from carrier/clean parents. I am aware you can never get everything down to a perfect scenario, but wouldn't it be great to offer pups that are an asset to the breed, even if they never enter the breeding programs.

 

[Ted Shih]

All other things being equal, a clear puppy is more desirable than a carrier puppy and it is easier to sell clear pups than carrier pups. For example, there have been threads on RTF describing the difficulty associated with placing pups with a CNM carrier parent.

It is rare that all things are equal ...

As far as difficulty in selling, I think that has a lot to do with misconceptions about what the difference is between clear, carrier, and affected

As a practical matter, how many buyers stud their males, or breed their bitches?

Why exclude a potentially significant portion of the gene pool just because they have carrier status?

 

[Angie B]

It is rare that all things are equal ...

As far as difficulty in selling, I think that has a lot to do with misconceptions about what the difference is between clear, carrier, and affected

As a practical matter, how many buyers stud their males, or breed their bitches?

Why exclude a potentially significant portion of the gene pool just because they have carrier status?

Believe it or not I was going to post the exact same thing, though I would no way have said it so well.

If I buy a puppy that could be a possible carrier of a genetic disease I could care less. That would be the last thing I would look at when making a decision on a litter. If I should decide to breed my puppy down the road for whatever reason I will make sure I have all the appropriate tests done. Which I would do anyway regardless of the carrier status of my new puppy.

I also disagree with puppies that are tested as being carriers be sold at a lower price. You'd think they were damaged goods or something. You can claim that they don't have the gene pool opportunites for breeding that non carriers do,,,,, So what! There are plenty of dogs or bitches that one can breed to that are clear. Again IF one chooses to breed, which like Ted states, rarely happens....

IMHO

Angie

 

[Angie B]

I feel very strongly about breeding carriers. How can we clean up the problems within the breed if there is still litters from carrier/clean parents. I am aware you can never get everything down to a perfect scenario, but wouldn't it be great to offer pups that are an asset to the breed, even if they never enter the breeding programs.

That's all fine and dandy.... But what if EIC is attached to pin point marking? Or strongly connected with the ability to run a "lazer line". Would you have those traits gone too?

Be careful what you ask for. We're not breeding test results we're breeding dogs with good information.

Angie

 

[To Train]

It is rare that all things are equal ...

As far as difficulty in selling, I think that has a lot to do with misconceptions about what the difference is between clear, carrier, and affected

As a practical matter, how many buyers stud their males, or breed their bitches?

Why exclude a potentially significant portion of the gene pool just because they have carrier status?

I personally would not breed a carrier. I would not want to possibly add more carriers to the population as possible breeding dogs because someone else might not be as conscientious in their breeding. My personal belief would be to try to eliminate the carrier gene by not breeding carriers and then eventually be able to rid this disease from the list of health issues in Labs. JMHO

Gregg

 

[ghak99]

I also disagree with puppies that are tested as being carriers be sold at a lower price. You'd think they were damaged goods or something. You can claim that they don't have the gene pool opportunites for breeding that non carriers do,,,,, So what! Their are plenty of dogs or bitches that one can breed to that are clear. Again IF one chooses to breed, which like Ted states, rarely happens....

IMHO

Angie

From what I've seen the market has determined "carrier pups", from anything but the very very top of the gene pool, to be of lesser value. Sadly, I tend to believe this is a result uneducated buyers. I've seen many buyers who have no intentions of breeding look at carriers as "damaged goods"......if I may steal your phrase. No matter how many times you explain a carrier will never show the disease, it scares them.:-x


If anyone has a NFC x NFC puppy who's a CNM and EIC carrier feel free to pawn it off on me for the garage sale price.

 

[Ted Shih]

I do not share your belief and am glad that everyone does not share your belief.

I have a wonderful puppy from a fabulous breeding involving a carrier, that would never have occured under your position

 

[ghak99]

I personally would not breed a carrier. I would not want to possibly add more carriers to the population as possible breeding dogs because someone else might not be as conscientious in their breeding. My personal belief would be to try to eliminate the carrier gene by not breeding carriers and then eventually be able to rid this disease from the list of health issues in Labs. JMHO

Gregg

Hate to be so blunt, but I think this is crazy.

If you feel so strongly about not adding more carriers to the gene pool and don't trust your puppy buyers, why not test the litter and have the carriers sold on a spay/neuter contract? This would at least give the rest of the litter, that will be clear in a Carrier x Clear breeding, a chance to become the next legendary sire or bitch.

 

[lilly]

You have a valid argument as long as that sort of thinking is applied. There will be excellent clean dogs from a carrier/clear breeding. These are the dogs that should be allowed to go into the gene pool and prove their excellence at the line and in the field.

 

[windycanyon]

I feel very strongly about breeding carriers. How can we clean up the problems within the breed if there is still litters from carrier/clean parents. I am aware you can never get everything down to a perfect scenario, but wouldn't it be great to offer pups that are an asset to the breed, even if they never enter the breeding programs.

Why would a carrier (=NON AFFECTED) NOT be an asset to the breed for a pet owner?

I only wish the human race was as selective about what got bred. Oops, did I say that?