yes, serious fault #7 page 59 in my book

 

Quote " Serious faults listed cover all those instances where the standard describes conduct of the dog which in and of itself justifies elimination from the stake."
and #7 is "Returning to an old fall.- returning to the are of either a fall or a blind that the dog has previously retrieved and establishing a hunt."

 

http://www.akc.org/pdfs/rulebooks/RHTRET.pdf

like Ken stated go to page 59 fault #7

 

But only if they establish a hunt, not if they run through the old fall.

 

On page 27, Chapter 4, Section 12, Paragraph 2

A dog that returns to the area of a fall or a blind that
it has previously retrieved and establishes another hunt
shall be considered to have returned to an old fall.
Unless in the opinion of the Judges there exist valid mitigating
circumstances, a dog that returns to an old fall
shall be scored low in Perseverance and/or Marking,​

even to the extent of awarding a grade of “zero.”

Florence

 

On page 27, Chapter 4, Section 12, Paragraph 2
Quote:

A dog that returns to the area of a fall or a blind that
it has previously retrieved and establishes another hunt
shall be considered to have returned to an old fall.
Unless in the opinion of the Judges there exist valid mitigating
circumstances, a dog that returns to an old fall
shall be scored low in Perseverance and/or Marking,​

even to the extent of awarding a grade of “zero.”


Florence

The section above is dead on point.

Unless in the opinion of the Judges there exist valid mitigating
circumstances, a dog that returns to an old fall
shall be scored low in Perseverance and/or Marking..........

Which means exactly what it says.

even to the extent of awarding a grade of “zero.”

Can come into play but it is/should not necessarily be manditory

john

 

SO,,,

In the last test I ran with Bailey. It was a senior level.

The water marks were REALLY tight. less than 25 yrds apart. Both thrown right to left. Memory bird was a low quick throw with a bad background, into low cattails. SOME dogs got a splash,, some did not. Go bird was a higher throw into higher thicker catails. OPEN WATER TO BOTH MARKS

Bailey clobbered the Go bird, but went in the direction of the Go bird for the MEMORY bird. She didnt really establish a hunt there, but worked past it and ended up looping around to get to the MEMORY mark. I never handled.

I was told, I would be LUCKY if I passed by members in the Gallery after they watched her run, because I didnt HANDLE TO THE Area of fall of the MEMORY bird. They told me I took a real Gamble cause I didnt handle, and took the chance Bailey would'nt establisha hunt on the go bird area.

Many Pro's and experianced handlers,Handled in the open water , and Handled their dog TO the area of fall of the Memeory bird.

In the end we passed,, and I thought Bailey did an exceptional job of Marking on both the land marks and the tight water marks. Though we did have a bit of a hunt on both the land and the waters MEMORY birds.

In the future, do you all think I would be wise Handling TO an area of Fall under similar circumstances???? I really dont like to Handle on marks at all, unless there are circumstances that warrent it,, and I really dont want to Handle a dog TO an AOF but rather I will handle if the dog is IN the AOF,, and for some reason is having trouble comming up with the bird for some reason, or looks like it is on the verge of leaving it.(AOF)

Just stepped into the fire suit regards,,

Gooser

P.S. I'm just ELATED we passed this tough Senior test!!

 

SO,,,
In the future, do you all think I would be wise Handling TO an area of Fall under similar circumstances???? I really dont like to Handle on marks at all, unless there are circumstances that warrent it,, and I really dont want to Handle a dog TO an AOF but rather I will handle if the dog is IN the AOF,, and for some reason is having trouble comming up with the bird for some reason, or looks like it is on the verge of leaving it.(AOF)

MG'er, I think I may think a little differently than you. Of course, no one wants to handle on a mark if they don't have to. I'll handle the dog in only a few circumstances:

1. Dog doesn't have a clue, and never establishes a hunt in the AOF.
2. Dog is headed for an old fall.

3. Dog has hunted an AOF for a LONG time and:

a) is burning too much memory or​

b) starts hunting too big and may return to an old fall or​

c) starts hunting too big and may head to another mark​

Yes, I'd have to agree that you got lucky this time if the dog went to an old fall and pushed through quickly enough that the judges didn't drop her. One little spin or sniff by the dog in the wrong direction (in their eyes) might have put you guys in the fail column.

Mark

 

MG

Once you start to handle you handle to the bird not just to the AOF. Handling your dog to the AOF and then letting it go on a 10 minute hunt does not play well with many judges.

 

Tmac is correct AOF is not good enough is many judges eyes. I went out in masters in a test for this very thing even tho he ran by the bird on downwind side, made a loop and picked it up. I did not handle all the way to the bird.
Ran test dog on the next series and he smashed them all. The judges told me later that they had to look to see why they dropped me.

 

mac is correct AQOF is not good enough is many judges eyes. I went out in masters in a test for this very thing even tho he ran by the bird on downwind side made a loop and picked it up. I did not handle all the way to the bird.

You never learned this before Masters?!?

 

If I decide to handle a dog TO the AOF, havent I already conceded the point to the judge that my dog hasnt shown marking and Memeory on THAT particular mark?

So by doing that,, wont I recieve a really low score anyhows? Mebe even a "0"??

If a dog proceeds directly to the AOF and establishes a hunt, that dog has shown Marking and memeory right? If it has trouble comming up with the bird for what ever reason, if the handle is clean,, I would think a markdown would be very negligible.

BIG difference in my opinion, to a dog that gets handled TO the area of fall.

Gooser

 

If I decide to handle a dog TO the AOF, havent I already conceded the point to the judge that my dog hasnt shown marking and Memeory on THAT particular mark?

So by doing that,, wont I recieve a really low score anyhows? Mebe even a "0"??

Well, if he ain't going to get there on his own, what are you going to do, pick him up? Make the judges judge you. Know the rules; unless he no-go's, comes back without the bird, switches, etc, you're still in the game at least. You may have 8 other good-to-excellent marks out of 9 or 10 in a Master stake..

If a dog proceeds directly to the AOF and establishes a hunt, that dog has shown Marking and memeory right? If it has trouble comming up with the bird for what ever reason, if the handle is clean,, I would think a markdown would be very negligible.

BIG difference in my opinion, to a dog that gets handled TO the area of fall.

Well yeah, sure, but you gotta play with the hand that's dealt you, right?

Mark

 

I like Johns answer.

Gooser

 

Sounds like a judge problem to me. Space your marks out so they have unique and distinct AOF's. Throwing the birds on top of themselves automatically creates the mitigating circumstances mentioned in the guide. Especially in a senior.

/Paul

 

/Paul


Many complaints at this test.

I's to stupid to knows better!

Some handlers scratched their dog.

I thought in the end however,, that the Judges judged it fairly!

But really,, I dont know how a SENIOR level dog would not go back to an old fall. They were REALLY tight. Some Handlers called them an INLINE down the shore!! I didnt think so,, but what do I know!

If you DID ACTUALLY have an INLINE Multiple Mark,, wouldnt a dog HAVE to go through an old Mark?? And If a dog Just pulled up for just a second on the old fall,, You guys tellin me they're gonna automatically FAIL the dog???

Gooser

Gooser

 

Gooser its suppose to be a marking test. Throwing two birds on top of each other is not a marking test. Throwing an inline is a test of trainability, and IMHO not something a senior level dog should be tested on. If a senior judge does go ahead with this setup, then the only fair thing to do would be to know going in that dogs will get hung up in AOF and need to be handled. To be fair they would have to take that into consideration when scoring the dogs. Personally, I would do everything i can to separate those marks for a senior level dog.

/Paul

 

Mooser, 18 of the 21 dogs left handled on those marks, The judges did allow for the dog to RUN through but not to stop and hunt, It is good that you had the confidence that the dog would push through. So when Rosco headed that way I handled because I didnt want him snooping around there. It was a wicked set up because if you handled and your dog pushed up into the cattails and your dog disappeared you were done..

 

Why would judges make senior dogs run through an old fall to get to another fall. ? Them judges should slink off the grounds in the dark and pray for forgiveness..


/Paul

 

Because most likely they have there dogs trained by someone else, or it happens only in colorado!!

 

Sounds more like an over and under than a conventional inline.
Down the shore regards
john

 

Quote:
It was a wicked set up because if you handled and your dog pushed up into the cattails and your dog disappeared you were done..

Thats another eason I was reluctant to handle.

The only place you could REALLY handle the dog was in the open water before the cover. Fine if you had a favorable wind when you ran! But Several dogs got into the cattails,, and handler could not see the dog to handle it!! NOR!!!!! could the Judges see the dog to JUDGE it!!

I know my dog,, and I know for a fact She doesnt handle well on MARKS,, especially if she has seen a good view of them! I was just gonna let her figure it out!

My main question though was the fact that some handlers said it was an AUTOMATIC FAILER if your dog retured to an old fall and established a hunt!

IF!!!!IF!!! the marks are inline,(which I dont feel these were, they were REALLY tight, but NOT inline) I would Hope judges in SENIOR level will use some common sense when judging this level of dog! Dog has to go through the old fall in a inline, maybe pull up for just a second, then proceed on and work it out! If I witnessed a JUDGE FAIL a SENIOR dog for this,, well out comes my blackbook!

I feel these judges that set this test up, didnt do it with any Malice or ego involved, but rather they tried to use the end of the pond that had true HUNTING features(cover, terrian) to a realistic advantage. In the end, I feel they judged the tests fairly, but sure gave a bunch of us the pucker. factor!

Many dogs were passed that had extended hunts on the MEMORY bird on the land test,(SOB) and then the dog was handled on the water Memory bird also! I think the JUDGES took their Challenging test into consideration,and then asked themselves "'would they hunt with this dog"!

I like a judge that doesnt look at the guidelines or rules as TRUE Black and White, but rather uses some common sense, and apply them, IN SOME CASES, in shades of grey!

I have been told here in Colorado NOT to use the word NO anytime!!
I agree if used as intimidation, but I caught myself using it TWICE at this test. Once when Lining for the land blind, I tapped my leg when She was looking in the wrond direction, and said sofly "No Here" twice!

I also used it on the water HONOR,, and said NO BIRD before the Marks were thrown.

Glad the Judges had some common sense.

Ive been TOLD people have been failed for this before in this region! I guess I would have to have been there to see HOW the "NO" was applied!

Gooser

 

Gooser -

First, Congrats on the Senior pass. I've seen your dog run and she does a nice job. I'm glad she didn't break on the honor

I think you've asked some good questions here and you are using some good common sense in answering your own questions. I think in most of these situations you just have to let the judges judge. There is a big difference between a quiet "no here" when lining up for a blind and a big "NO" on a cast refusal. That's where judgement comes into play. I use No in the same ways that you described and I've never been dropped for it.

Good luck this weekend!