[Ted Shih]

My question is how well do these "amish" dogs do in trials and hunt tests compared to conventional training?

It sure seems to me that he is asking about how amish dogs perform in today's trials.

But, no doubt I misread his post because I am trial centric.

 

[Howard N]

I started retriever training in '91. Collars were then in use but not everybody used them. Most long term trainers at that time had one, (maybe more, 'cause you needed 3. One in use, one going for repair, and one coming back from repair) but many would not admit to it. Matter of fact, there were some trialers very adament against ecollar use. Look at the Cappes/Curtis tapes and you'll see why.

But, over the years a higher and higher percentage of trainers used the collar. Lardy's tapes came out in ~'95 and we then had a good basis for an ecollar training program. Before his tapes came out it seemed like everyone was secretive of how to train with a collar.

If collars weren't more effective at training dogs we wouldn't see the higher levels of retriever work dominated by collar trainers. After all, they didn't have them when this game first started. They came on in (I think) the 70's and 80's. If they didn't train a retriever well, they wouldn't be in use by almost every high level retriever trainer.

It's just a tool for training a dog and a better tool than what came before it.

 

[Uncle Bill]

For those that dislike the 'Amish' moniker, (never heard it until I became a member of RTF...mebbe a Chris origination eh?) how about what we called it when I started in the 80's: A tennis shoe trainer. We certainly ran down a lot of dogs in those days, even when they were in the water.

Prior to joining a club in the early 90's, I was a rock-throwin' waterdog trainer. I'd throw a rock in the slough, and as the dog neared the spot where it fell, I'd throw another one farther out. Eventually the dog would get a scent of the bird, or see it, and that's how I started running blinds.

I'd also get a pheasant or duck wing, drag it around in the pasture on a string, and turn the dog loose to trail it. With that sort of background, you can imagine how shocked I was to watch trialers teaching their dogs with whistles and hand signals...to swim along the shoreline. As a meat hunter, that was the last of my concerns...HOW the dog got the bird.

With the help of some good trainers that have become dear friends and off-and-on hunting buddies, I was able to put Master titles on a couple of chocolate labs, and after getting involved in HRC, I also got their HRCH titles. The daddy named Clyde, was my 16 year old son's dog, and was trained by committee. I got several reminders, "Dad, do we have to get so rough?" Clyde played us like a fiddle, but did well enough to get the chicken at the tests. He hated training, but loved the games.

His son was named Luke. Totally collar conditioned and trained. Spent several weeks at a pro's facility learning how to use the collar, and train with it. The pro thought Lukie might be trial quality, but I was having too much fun doing hunt tests, so that's the direction we took.

I've since trained a few more labs with the collar. Have learned from each one of them. What they really taught me was to read them, so I knew what to expect, and could train them with fewer mistakes, and more confidence.

Needless to say, I'd never go back to 'tennis-shoe' training again. Couldn't if I wanted to. Age has it's limitations. But over the years of running hunt tests in every venue, and titles from most of them, along with boxes of ribbons, I've had many participants come up to me and ask if I collar train. I'd tell them I do and ask them why they want to know. They enjoyed how happy my dogs reacted around me, and they didn't understand how they could be that friendly and jovial, yet under control, without showing any fear. The collar-trained dogs they saw seemed sad, or cowed, or very fearful, so they didn't have a good feeling about training their dog that way.

So I told them my secret. I wear clean socks, and give my dogs goose-stick treats. Why wouldn't they be happy?;-)

UB

 

[Shayne Mehringer]

... because I am trial centric.

Step 1 is admitting you have a problem. Not sure about step 2, i've always lacked follow-thru.

SM

 

[Ted Shih]

Step 1 is admitting you have a problem. Not sure about step 2, i've always lacked follow-thru.

SM

IF I had a problem,
and
IF I addressed it,

What exactly would that do to your ability to pay your mortgage?

 

[Shayne Mehringer]

IF I had a problem,
and
IF I addressed it,

What exactly would that do to your ability to pay your mortgage?

The problem is that you obviously don't have enough dogs/entries.

My ability to pay my mortgage is limited only by my own creativity for coming up with excuses for why it is late again.

My dog ate the checkbook regards,

SM

 

[Ted Shih]

The problem is that you obviously don't have enough dogs/entries.

My ability to pay my mortgage is limited only by my own creativity for coming up with excuses for why it is late again.

My dog ate the checkbook regards,

SM

Well, if you don't appreciate my business, I will have to go to the OTHER business, who probably won't appreciate me, either

 

[Shayne Mehringer]

Well, if you don't appreciate my business, I will have to go to the OTHER business, who probably won't appreciate me, either

I dunno... i think they have an anti-trial-centric policy.... whereas i support such concepts - or any other concepts my customers wish to come up with. HAHA

SM

 

[Ted Shih]

I'd still like to hear an opinion (anyone's) on the question Paul Young (on this thread or another) asked about any potential jump/block/etc between QAA and higher field trial titles. A couple of contributors said they were able to train to the QAA level without a collar and lamented what might have been. Is there some barrier/testing/jump/etc that takes place beyond that level that would limit a non-collar trainer from legitimately competing?

.

Degree of Difficulty

Think of the Qual as High School Football and the Open as the NFL

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Once your're at the trial its all about the dogs having an equal opportunity to do the test put before them in the same conditions. How or what method was used to train them the week before means nothing. If people want to say its not a fair comparison of "amish" vs collar trained dogs they can do that, but always keep in mind that the method used to train the dog is in direct correlation to the results achieved at the trial. If dogs trained in an amish method were winning trials, people would be doing it.


/Paul

 

[Ted Shih]

Still waiting to hear how many Amish trained dogs have obtained their FC or AFC in the past 10 years .....

 

[Doug Main]

Still waiting to hear how many Amish trained dogs have obtained their FC or AFC in the past 10 years .....

I would guess it is zero or dang close to it.

Is it still possible? I really don't think so. It would take an absolutely incredible dog.

Even if the dog could be trained to the all-age level, how can it be maintained at that level without developing problems, long enough to run enough trials to earn the points.

 

[Sissi]

I view this as a bottom line matter. I want my dogs to get their FC's and AFC's and I want to compete in the National Amateur and National Open.

I have no particular commitment to the collar ... other than it works.

If you can demonstrate to me that Amish, Flemish, or Martian works better ... I am listening

But, I don't see any data to support the proposition

And I don't think I need a PhD in statistics to reach that conclusion

In my own personal opinion you would be just as sucessful as now if you would train your dogs with a different method. Because you would put the same effort you put in this method also in another method.

And all the F.T. CH. in Europe today are trained without e-collar and for me there is no proof whatever that they work worse than US dogs.

 

[Patrick Johndrow]

How many FC AFC have been trained by the owners over the last ten years?

 

[Ted Shih]

In my own personal opinion you would be just as sucessful as now if you would train your dogs with a different method. Because you would put the same effort you put in this method also in another method.

And all the F.T. CH. in Europe today are trained without e-collar and for me there is no proof whatever that they work worse than US dogs.

Maybe 25 years ago, I trained my dogs without the collar. I can't imagine doing that again.

I doubt that I would have any success at the higher echelons of competition, if my dogs were trained without the collar.

I know of no current FC or AFC dogs trained without the collar.

I know nothing about what the dogs do in Europe and so will not comment on them. But, here the collar trained dogs dominate the competition.

Ted

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Maybe 25 years ago, I trained my dogs without the collar. I can't imagine doing that again.

I doubt that I would have any success at the higher echelons of competition, if my dogs were trained without the collar.

I know of no current FC or AFC dogs trained without the collar.

I know nothing about what the dogs do in Europe and so will not comment on them. But, here the collar trained dogs dominate the competition.

Ted

An interesting thing I note in my training journal is that when dogs get to the late transition and advanced levels is that the actual collar corrections are fairly few and far between. I believe its because of the timliness of the corrections throughout training that allows us to build good habits from properly timed corrections resulting in less collar use than ever before. A testiment to the great training programs being followed today.

This brings up the question in my mind for the amish, "is 4 collar corrections on average per week worse than X poorly timed amish corrections per week on average?"

I didn't realize you had been in retriever sports that long Ted. I've only been doing retrievers for about 15. I bet you've seen some real changes in the training programs...

/Paul

 

[Doug Main]

In my own personal opinion you would be just as sucessful as now if you would train your dogs with a different method. Because you would put the same effort you put in this method also in another method.

And all the F.T. CH. in Europe today are trained without e-collar and for me there is no proof whatever that they work worse than US dogs.

Most of the European's call our FT dogs robots compared to theirs. ;-)

That is because of the amount of control that is required of the dog at a distance.

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Most of the European's call our FT dogs robots compared to theirs. ;-)

That is because of the amount of control that is required of the dog at a distance.

Its a completely different style of hunting. People forget that.

/Paul

 

[Sissi]

Its a completely different style of hunting. People forget that.

/Paul

You are right, it is a completely different style. I have watched an AKC Hunttest in the US and parts of a F.T. on video.
And I agree with you that it is probably not possible to compete on a high level in the F.T.´s without an e-collar. So I guess two different trial systems two different methods of training.
But I´d like to picture a scenario. If nobody would use an e-collar what would happen???
Would the F.T.´s change??
Would they change the rules??
There would still be F.T. Champions I guess . Or not???
Would different dogs get the titles????
I think there are many interesting questions but of course reality is different

 

[Ted Shih]

But I´d like to picture a scenario. If nobody would use an e-collar what would happen???
Would the F.T.´s change??
Would they change the rules??
There would still be F.T. Champions I guess . Or not???
Would different dogs get the titles????
I think there are many interesting questions but of course reality is different

For me, it is irrelevant. The judges don't care whether you train with a collar, cookies, or a kazoo. All they care about is how your dog performs. In that sense, it is very simple.

I am curious why you seem to find the collar so reprehensible. To put it another way, why do you want to eliminate the collar from the equation?