[badbullgator]

What's wrong with attention-getters? The dog is still in trouble if it is way ahead of the handler. Good opportunity to break too

Give Jerry Mann a call and see what the AKC's take is on attention getters PRIOR to the bird being thrown in a walk up. There was a porrpe fired as the bird was thrown. With attention getters the handlers will sit the dog at the first hint of a sound and then it is no longer a wlak up and no different form walking to the line and sitting your dog.

 

[labhauler]

You can sit your dog when you see the guns go up-that's not an attention getter?
I doubt the AKC will interfere with the judges' decision to blow a duck call or have the gun station make noise of any sort.
Anyway Jerry Mann isnt always perfectly correct.

 

[22899]

I will say this!

to the original poster.

If you continue to run tests without gettin OB down pat,, Your problem WILL get worse, and you will find HT's a nightmare to attend and run!

ITS sposed to be fun!!!

Correct the problem NOW!! I dont care what your pro says!

My background!

8 yr old HRCH that abuses ME severly at the line!

I made the mistake of running tests before she was ready!!

Guess what!!!

I've made the SAME MISTAKE with my second dog!

Alll I do at HT's is stand back WISHIN I had a steady dog!!

Gooser

 

[badbullgator]

You can sit your dog when you see the guns go up-that's not an attention getter?
I doubt the AKC will interfere with the judges' decision to blow a duck call or have the gun station make noise of any sort.
Anyway Jerry Mann isnt always perfectly correct.

Want to bet??? While they may not be able to force you to leave them out they can strongly suggest it. ;-)
BTW- no guns going up,,,,just a bird flying out of a winger and a shot

 

[Doug Main]

Give Jerry Mann a call and see what the AKC's take is on attention getters PRIOR to the bird being thrown in a walk up. There was a porrpe fired as the bird was thrown. With attention getters the handlers will sit the dog at the first hint of a sound and then it is no longer a wlak up and no different form walking to the line and sitting your dog.

Pretty sure Mr. Mann does not have a problem with this. He does have a problem with the handlers sitting on the sound instead of when the bird is in the air. That is a totally different issue. ;-)

You might want to ask him about the purpose of an "attention getter", in an AKC marking test. In AKC, a marking test is not whether the dog saw the mark, but rather whether it actually marked and remembers the bird.

It is not like HRC where it is a test of whether the dog saw the mark, as did the dog swing with the gun.;-)

If 50% of the dogs did not see the mark, IMHO there was an issue.

 

[badbullgator]

Pretty sure Mr. Mann does not have a problem with this. He does have a problem with the handlers sitting on the sound instead of when the bird is in the air. That is a totally different issue. ;-)

You might want to ask him about the purpose of an "attention getter", in an AKC marking test. In AKC, a marking test is not whether the dog saw the mark, but rather whether it actually marked and remembers the bird.

It is not like HRC where it is a test of whether the dog saw the mark, as did the dog swing with the gun.;-)

If 50% of the dogs did not see the mark, IMHO there was an issue.

Did any of you see this test? I don't think so. As pointed out with the dog question above it is kind of hard for you to make a call on something you didn't see. Yep 50% of the dogs did not look in the right direction for the mark AND we were asked by the AKC rep to REMOVE the call form the mark. Lets see what those who ran the test have to say about it. Most are at work so lets just see if any of them happen on this thread tonight and see how fair or unfair they thought it was.
Monday morning QB's at their finest regards

And yes if 50% of the dogs did not see the mark there is a probelm....with the dogs or the handlers becasue there it sat right out in the middle of a big old cow pasture. Man it was tough...
Don't like a walk up without an attention getter??? Write my name down and stay away because you won't see one in my test

 

[Jim Harvey]

Did any of you see this test? I don't think so. As pointed out with the dog question above it is kind of hard for you to make a call on something you didn't see. Yep 50% of the dogs did not look in the right direction for the mark AND we were asked by the AKC rep to REMOVE the call form the mark. Lets see what those who ran the test have to say about it. Most are at work so lets just see if any of them happen on this thread tonight and see how fair or unfair they thought it was.
Monday morning QB's at their finest regards

And yes if 50% of the dogs did not see the mark there is a probelm....with the dogs or the handlers becasue there it sat right out in the middle of a big old cow pasture. Man it was tough...
Don't like a walk up without an attention getter??? Write my name down and stay away because you won't see one in my test

I ran this test. It was a great set-up, definitely, not set up to trick the dog. Like I believe Corey mentioned, the majority of the dogs that didn't mark the bird weren't as steady as they should of been. Dogs at heel, usually don't need the attention getter, they are already looking out ready for anything.

When my dog is at heal, especailly in a walk-up, he better be on a 180 degree scan, looking out ready for a bird at any moment. That's how's he was trained and becasue of that, he mark bird pretty well.

Great setup,.........

 

[SueLab]

So say we leave the holding blind and halfway there or 20 feet away or so I have him sit and i continue to the line, then call him and he comes straight to heeling position. permissible??

I used to do this (for about 6-8 feet) for entirely another reason other than control. I had mobility issues with a bad knee and I needed a head start out of some holding areas where the ground was rough or uneven.

I was told that this was next to teaching the dog to BREAK! The pro who offered his advice is a very famous FT pro and I took his advice and discontinued the practice. You should call the dog to heel next to or behind the holding blind, insist on a sit, gain control and then proceed to the line.

Go back to your basic obedience and remember that if the dog forgets 50% of what you have taught - you better be doing a more thorough job of teaching the skills needed to get to the line. There really is no short cut to the obedience needed to have a dog that is a 50% team mate on the line.

(Just started judging jr. and sr. but have trained personal dogs through MH and QAA for about 10 years...)

 

[Golddogs]

Give Jerry Mann a call and see what the AKC's take is on attention getters PRIOR to the bird being thrown in a walk up. There was a porrpe fired as the bird was thrown. With attention getters the handlers will sit the dog at the first hint of a sound and then it is no longer a wlak up and no different form walking to the line and sitting your dog.

Not to stir to briskly, but Jerry has seen 3 Senior tests I have been involved with as a judge. In each, we used a call from the field as the handler was walking up. I have never been asked or been hinted to change. On the contrary, we have been complimented on the realistic set-up. All of my walkups will be from 10 to 20 yards and handlers are instructed to sit the dog WHEN THE BIRD IS IN THE AIR, not when they hear a duck call. I also don't mark a spot and will vary the place where we call for birds. What never changes is how we set up so the dog can see both marks but cannot see the go-bird station and focus only on it.

If done correctly they can be a lot of fun. Just to do them to do them is a waste of time.

 

[john fallon]

Not to stir to briskly, but Jerry has seen 3 Senior tests I have been involved with as a judge. In each, we used a call from the field as the handler was walking up. I have never been asked or been hinted to change. On the contrary, we have been complimented on the realistic set-up. All of my walkups will be from 10 to 20 yards and handlers are instructed to sit the dog WHEN THE BIRD IS IN THE AIR, not when they hear a duck call. I also don't mark a spot and will vary the place where we call for birds. What never changes is how we set up so the dog can see both marks but cannot see the go-bird station and focus only on it.

If done correctly they can be a lot of fun. Just to do them to do them is a waste of time.

Yep!

The Judges , in advance of the start of testing, direct the handler as to when to "SIT" the dog. It can and and maybe should according to the book,(?) be after the second call and at the Pop/Throw if they say so....ie. :Call from line , handler and dog continue walking. Call from gun station, handler and dog continue walking . Gunner shoots/throws, Handler sits Dog, the test continues.....

BBgator,You have obviously talked to Jerry Mann about this . What is "his" take on the AKC's position on testing memmory and making sure that the dog has every opportunity to see the Mark in the air so as to be able tested on its ability to remember where it falls.?

A single popper AS the bird is being thrown may not afford the walking dog this opportunity.

john

 

[brandywinelabs]

This is a test, not hunting, and not training. And the dogs know it. I want to give them every opportunity to pass. If that means a little extra noise so be it. And that depends on a lot of factors. But to flat out say we "shouldn't" use a call or something at the first bird down on a walkup is wrong!

 

[labhauler]

Just a comment on how the thread went from senior rules to walkup discussion

 

[Miriam Wade]

Not to stir to briskly, but Jerry has seen 3 Senior tests I have been involved with as a judge. In each, we used a call from the field as the handler was walking up. I have never been asked or been hinted to change. On the contrary, we have been complimented on the realistic set-up. All of my walkups will be from 10 to 20 yards and handlers are instructed to sit the dog WHEN THE BIRD IS IN THE AIR, not when they hear a duck call. I also don't mark a spot and will vary the place where we call for birds. What never changes is how we set up so the dog can see both marks but cannot see the go-bird station and focus only on it.

If done correctly they can be a lot of fun. Just to do them to do them is a waste of time.

I'm not taking a stand on whether a call should be heard from the field on a walkup, but in every AKC walkup I've run-that has been the case.

Re your instructions to handlers to sit their dog not on the call, but when the bird is in the air-I know plenty of dogs that are trained on sitting to the call on a walkup. That, and old grey muzzled dogs know EXACTLY what is going on & sit on the call (they probably had the gun station picked out looong before the call ). In that instance-I hope you're not saying the dog is penalized in some way if it sits on it's own.

M

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

So there are two good threads in this. One training focused, the other judging focused. Since the question pertained to judging and the consensus so far is that a dog must heel, how much would a judge ding a dog for heeling?

/Paul

 

[DarrinGreene]

In a real life hunting situation I want a dog that sees the birds as soon as I do if not before. The dogs that were well mannered, and I suppose to some extent experienced hunting dogs, had no problem.
;-)

I dunno nuttin bout huttin but sounds like good ol Jersey bushwhackin to me! How you gonna night duck with a dog that's lookin at the ground?

JK of course.

 

[Golddogs]

I'm not taking a stand on whether a call should be heard from the field on a walkup, but in every AKC walkup I've run-that has been the case.

Re your instructions to handlers to sit their dog not on the call, but when the bird is in the air-I know plenty of dogs that are trained on sitting to the call on a walkup. That, and old grey muzzled dogs know EXACTLY what is going on & sit on the call (they probably had the gun station picked out looong before the call ). In that instance-I hope you're not saying the dog is penalized in some way if it sits on it's own.

M

M,
I won't signal for the bird to be thrown if the dog sits on the call. If the dog goes on auto, I expect the handler to correct this and keep walking till the bird is in the air. then blow a sit whistle or verbal sit him till released. All instructions are keep walking till the bird is in the air. This is one of the reasons I like a long walk-up and no set point to stop.And for clarification, it is more of a soft cluck to attract attention, not a big old hi-ball call.

 

[badbullgator]

Yep!

The Judges , in advance of the start of testing, direct the handler as to when to "SIT" the dog. It can and and maybe should according to the book,(?) be after the second call and at the Pop/Throw if they say so....ie. :Call from line , handler and dog continue walking. Call from gun station, handler and dog continue walking . Gunner shoots/throws, Handler sits Dog, the test continues.....

BBgator,You have obviously talked to Jerry Mann about this . What is "his" take on the AKC's position on testing memmory and making sure that the dog has every opportunity to see the Mark in the air so as to be able tested on its ability to remember where it falls.?

A single popper AS the bird is being thrown may not afford the walking dog this opportunity.

john

John, Please read above where I state that THE AKC REP had asked us to leave out the attention getting sound (i.e duck call).
Only one person who has commented on this thread actually saw the test and has stated their opinion, which is that it was a fair test and not a trick, the rest of you are simply speculating and piling on the bus. The mark was 125 yards away, almost straight in front of the dog. Read that one again almost straight in front of the dog. Please tell me how that is a mark a dog cannot see. Even a half blind dog could have seen the fall IF, and that is a big IF, the dog was walking at heel in control and looking ahead pretty much anywhere. For Christ sake it was in the MIDDDLE of a cow pasture and the walk up station was near one of the only trees in the test. Now IF your dog was looking elsewhere or working on its own as it went to the line then it probably did not see the bird. Maybe I should restate that, perhaps the proper way of saying that is that the dog did not look at the winger station BEFORE the bird was launched, but all had the opportunity to see the bird in the air because a shot was fired and I think we could all agree that there is not a master dog on the planet that does not recognize the sound of a winger throwing a bird. I think there is also the assumption that 50% of the dogs were dropped for this and that is FAR from correct.

Posted By John Fallon
The Judges , in advance of the start of testing, direct the handler as to when to "SIT" the dog. It can and and maybe should according to the book,(?) be after the second call and at the Pop/Throw if they say so....ie. :Call from line , handler and dog continue walking. Call from gun station, handler and dog continue walking . Gunner shoots/throws, Handler sits Dog, the test continues.....

John I can’t find it in the book, maybe you can point out where it says that a walk up has to have an attention getting sound. Not talking about the can, but rather the should part…..

At any rate I am done with the internet pissing match with people who did not even see what they have formed such strong opinions about. If you don’t like it don’t run under me. I don’t judge that much so it will not stop you from running many tests. It will not break my heart and I can promise you that 9 out of 10 times my walk up will not have a sound first, in masters anyway.

 

[badbullgator]

I'm not taking a stand on whether a call should be heard from the field on a walkup, but in every AKC walkup I've run-that has been the case.

Re your instructions to handlers to sit their dog not on the call, but when the bird is in the air-I know plenty of dogs that are trained on sitting to the call on a walkup. That, and old grey muzzled dogs know EXACTLY what is going on & sit on the call (they probably had the gun station picked out looong before the call ). In that instance-I hope you're not saying the dog is penalized in some way if it sits on it's own.

M

Mariam that is the point exactly. A walk up should not be the same thing as a dog sitting to watch a mark fall and all the instructions in the world will not stop a test wise dog from sitting on the call and I would not ding a dog for that in most cases. ;-)

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

John, Please read above where I state that THE AKC REP had asked us to leave out the attention getting sound (i.e duck call).
Only one person who has commented on this thread actually saw the test and has stated their opinion, which is that it was a fair test and not a trick, the rest of you are simply speculating and piling on the bus. The mark was 125 yards away, almost straight in front of the dog. Read that one again almost straight in front of the dog. Please tell me how that is a mark a dog cannot see. Even a half blind dog could have seen the fall IF, and that is a big IF, the dog was walking at heel in control and looking ahead pretty much anywhere. For Christ sake it was in the MIDDDLE of a cow pasture and the walk up station was near one of the only trees in the test. Now IF your dog was looking elsewhere or working on its own as it went to the line then it probably did not see the bird. Maybe I should restate that, perhaps the proper way of saying that is that the dog did not look at the winger station BEFORE the bird was launched, but all had the opportunity to see the bird in the air because a shot was fired and I think we could all agree that there is not a master dog on the planet that does not recognize the sound of a winger throwing a bird. I think there is also the assumption that 50% of the dogs were dropped for this and that is FAR from correct.

Posted By John Fallon
The Judges , in advance of the start of testing, direct the handler as to when to "SIT" the dog. It can and and maybe should according to the book,(?) be after the second call and at the Pop/Throw if they say so....ie. :Call from line , handler and dog continue walking. Call from gun station, handler and dog continue walking . Gunner shoots/throws, Handler sits Dog, the test continues.....

John I can’t find it in the book, maybe you can point out where it says that a walk up has to have an attention getting sound. Not talking about the can, but rather the should part…..

At any rate I am done with the internet pissing match with people who did not even see what they have formed such strong opinions about. If you don’t like it don’t run under me. I don’t judge that much so it will not stop you from running many tests. It will not break my heart and I can promise you that 9 out of 10 times my walk up will not have a sound first, in masters anyway.

Corey, pssstttt......ask John how often he judges.....

/Paul

 

[badbullgator]

Corey, pssstttt......ask John how often he judges.....

/Paul

I know but he sure does love a good pissing match