[ChrisRobt]

Today I was informed by the master test judge, that since I had handled on two of the three "memory " birds in the test, that they would not be able to pass my dog. I've taken the AKC judge's tests and have never read this rule anywhere. Can someone tell me where to find it?

 

[MRC Dream]

Today I was informed by the master test judge, that since I had handled on two of the three "memory " birds in the test, that they would not be able to pass my dog. I've taken the AKC judge's tests and have never read this rule anywhere. Can someone tell me where to find it?

That was a nice way of saying...."Your dog doesn't mark worth a shiat....."

or............You got 0's in marking..........

And.......you took the test huh? lol..............

 

[K G]

Today I was informed by the master test judge, that since I had handled on two of the three "memory " birds in the test, that they would not be able to pass my dog. I've taken the AKC judge's tests and have never read this rule anywhere. Can someone tell me where to find it?

Three memory birds in a test sounds like a quad. Depending on how they scored the other two marking series, your dog's average probably wouldn't have reached a 5 in the marking category.

Just my guess regards,

kg

 

[ChrisRobt]

KG, I handled twice over three series, not in one series.

 

[K G]

Still sounds like the same math. Were the handles on series with three or more marks?

Unless you pinned the remaining marks, sounds like those handles dropped that marking score to an average below five.

Just my guess regards,

kg

 

[Swampcollie]

Today I was informed by the master test judge, that since I had handled on two of the three "memory " birds in the test, that they would not be able to pass my dog. I've taken the AKC judge's tests and have never read this rule anywhere. Can someone tell me where to find it?

There is no such regulation.

Normally, if you handle too many times your marking score will fall to a point where you can no longer earn a passing score. (From zero to less than five.)

 

[tshuntin]

There is NO RULE that says if you handle in two series you are out or can not pass. We recently hosted an AKC judges seminar and this question was asked to the two AKC reps who put on the seminar. There is no rule that says if you handle twice you are out. You can pass with two handles for sure. But, as KG said, your scores may not have averaged high enough up to that point to get to a qualifying score.

 

[Juli H]

how did other dogs do?

....sometimes if it is a tough test, and lots of dogs are handling or double handling, the judges will pass/carry dogs (have seen this, but not in AKC, so it might be different - though doubt it)... If yours was the only dog or one of just a few to handle on more than one mark, then probably they did not pass your dog due to the marking score....

Juli

 

[Thomas D]

Were all three tests triples?

 

[kimsmith]

How bad was the handles, were they clean? Did you have to handle to the Area or was you handling in the area? There are a lot of reasons your dog would have failed. No one is going to fail you for handling twice in 2 different series but everything else better be clean.

 

[Chris Atkinson]

Hi Chris Robt,

I'm imagining that if the judge simply told you that your dog was not given a passing score due to low evaluations on "marking and memory", you may not be questioning this.

This is one of the positives that come out of the HRC/UKC judges' seminars. They coach you over, and over, and over, to NOT discuss specifics with participants for lack of a passing evaluation. They advise, which I've come to agree with, that it be discussed in generalities.

If the dog hand handled on X out of Y marks, they coach you to simply advise the handler that their dog was not passed due to low evaluations in "marking and memory". It gives the handler an opportunity to walk off and think to themselves. In most cases, they will agree, that their dog didn't really mark that well, rather than searching around in the rulebook for a black and white passage indicating that X must happen in a marking series before the dog is failed.

 

[Guest]

There was an old "unwritten rule" that two handles over the three series and you're out (and a double handle in one series and you're out). There were lots of judges back when we started running (13 yrs ago) that seemed to follow this rule.

I haven't heard of anyone doing it in forever, though. HOWEVER, I agree with the others here that if you handled on two marks across three series AND the remaining marks weren't strong, then you may not average out.

However, JUST saying you're out because you handled twice isn't really a fair or rule-abiding explanation. I'd want to see your marking scores for all three series...

-K

 

[BetsyBernock]

No one is going to fail you for handling twice in 2 different series but everything else better be clean.

Not true. There are master judges who have a steadfast rule - handle twice and you're out. And they are wrong. It should not be an automatic fail but it can be a fail depending on the overall work; and on the factors surrounding the handles, like you said. There is a difference between handling to the area of the fall and a quick handle to the bird while in the area of the fall.

 

[Stan b]

Hi Chris Robt,

I'm imagining that if the judge simply told you that your dog was not given a passing score due to low evaluations on "marking and memory", you may not be questioning this.

This is one of the positives that come out of the HRC/UKC judges' seminars. They coach you over, and over, and over, to NOT discuss specifics with participants for lack of a passing evaluation. They advise, which I've come to agree with, that it be discussed in generalities.

If the dog hand handled on X out of Y marks, they coach you to simply advise the handler that their dog was not passed due to low evaluations in "marking and memory". It gives the handler an opportunity to walk off and think to themselves. In most cases, they will agree, that their dog didn't really mark that well, rather than searching around in the rulebook for a black and white passage indicating that X must happen in a marking series before the dog is failed.

Handling on marks is an oxymoron.

just sayin'

 

[Lisa Van Loo]

This is one of those "It Depends" situations.

Since we have no idea of the grounds, the setups, nor their complexity, there is no way of knowing what was running through the judges' heads. Perhaps they were of the "two handles and you are out" camp. Or not.

Or, perhaps they viewed the dog's performance against the sets of marks that they had devised, used their judgement, and scored accordingly. Which is why we call them "judges" and not "accountants".



Lisa

 

[fishduck]

I am not a judge so this is my opinion only. I would not expect a ribbon when handling on 2 out of 8 or 9 marks. Marking is of primary importance according to the rules. If you handled to the area on 2 marks your dog was not marking well on that day. Thank the judges and try again. There is always another test.
Mark L.

 

[Dan Wegner]

Not all handles are created equal. If the dog left the line on the way to an old fall or off into no-man's land and had to be handled to the bird, that performance doesn't compare to the dog that simply drives past a fall on the upwind side and has to be stopped and handled cleanly to the bird. The first dog showed me NO INDICATION that it knew where the mark was. It's all about the impact to the marking or perseverence scores, not the number of handles.

If you only have 8 marks in a Master test over 3 series (triple, double, triple) and 3 of them are go-birds, the other 5 are memory birds. At a minimum, I'd like to see a dog clearly remember 3 of those 5 and at least indicate some idea of the general area on the 4th one. If they need moderate help on one or maybe a quick handle on two, and all other work is satisfactory, I have no problem passing that dog. On the other hand, if the dog is totally clueless on two or more and requires significant assistance and the other marks were not real strong, as a judge, I have a decision to make.

Every situation is different. That's why we have judges. Some are better than others, but in the end, we shouldn't make excuses for our dogs. Just train them better and hope for the best.

 

[Misty Marsh]

Kind of the way I look at it is 2 handles will not get the pass unless one was a quick/clean handle and the remainder of the work was flawless, and I mean truly flawless. On any given weekend I feel very lucky to pass with 2 handles onboard.

 

[Chris Atkinson]

Handling on marks is an oxymoron.

just sayin'

Most organizations' rulebooks have passages that address this oxymoron. Things like "a crisp handle is preferable to a long hunt" are used.

 

[Bob Gutermuth]

I have judged a boatload of master tests. My personal criteria is 1 clean triple as a minimum for passage. That said how were the rest of your marks? Pinning the go bird and then putting on a gorilla hunt and then a handle ain't gonna play with a lot of judges