[Goldenboy]

Watch this video then ask that question again..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7skSjz2sl0

What do you think this video demonstrates?

 

[greg magee]

Watch this video then ask that question again..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7skSjz2sl0

That wasn't thedogs fault, bad handling and bad instruction all at the same time.

 

[Jay Dufour]

Sorry.What question is that video the answer to?

 

[PackLeader]

I agree with all the above. I still don't see how the dog being less steady would have helped the situation.

I have seen dog crumble under less pressure. You need to have both...great drive and solid obedience IMO.

 

[Redgolden]

I did not realize that English was not your native tongue.

For the top competitors, I think obedience is important. Do they work to obtain the same refinement in heeling, sitting, recall as obedience competitors? No. Does that mean obedience is unimportant? I think not.

In making your assumptions concerning obedience in Field Trials, do you consider the effort that is required to get a dog to heel with you in tiny increments in order to get his/her spine propertly aligned on a blind, or the communication necessary to get a dog to focus in the distance for a destination on a blind? Is this not obedience? If not, what shall we call it?

First, thanks for your understanding, I appreciate !

It seems we say almost the same thing... just that I may have not explained myself properly.

All work done with a dog has to relie on obedience. It is all a matter of goals and needs. For a certain type of work, you need a certain amount of obedience. I my experience, the least obedience needed for a particular work is S&R (only few basics are needed and a few commands to a distance). With the hunting dog (FT, HT, proper hunting, etc.) asks for another degree of obedience. We we get into obedience trials, the obedience has to be to a very refined level. This doesn't mean that obedience isn't important nor that in FT, the emphasys isn't putted on obedience. I simply say that the "amount" of obedience work isn't the same.

I sincerally didn't mean any generalities. I was trying to express another point of view that supported the importance of obedience training as being a great part in building retrievers.

As for the facts, I'll figure how to explain some stuffs before writing anything, just to make sure I write the right "terms" for that demonstration.

 

[Redgolden]

I think I need to be able to post what I'm thinking better. Somehow i've managed to give everyone the idea that I don't think obedience is important. If that's true, it was not my intention to belittle the importance of an obedient dog.
Walt

Is English your native language ? ahahahah ! What a relief to see that happens too to an english speaking person !

I'll try to translate something we work with in Communications (have a Ba. degree in that field) :

"What I think, what I mean to say, what I say, what I think I have said, what has been heard, what is the other's perception and what is the other's understanding : the initial idea was processed 7 times thru intierly different mechanism. This means that we can get several results from what was initially in mind."

 

[Jay Dufour]

Ted's five standards,and Sehon's marking,memory is the recipe for blue ribbons in Field Trials.Nothing more....nothing less.But it is the most interesting thread in a while.Still dont know what the video was about.I thought walt had some good points.
Merry Christmas !!!!

 

[limiman12]

Watch this video then ask that question again..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7skSjz2sl0

why would you burn as you were calling the dog in and it was coming?????

This video is opposite what was said earlier about few corrections with purpose.

Not a good example of much that I can see other then poor handling and a dog that is getting burned when it is doing what she is being told to do instead of getting a nick when she is making the mistake...

Put the collar on the handler or the voice.....

 

[limiman12]

Or start closer to the logs and work away from them....

 

[Goldenboy]

why would you burn as you were calling the dog in and it was coming?????


Put the collar on the handler or the voice.....

I was thinking that it must have been a taught blind and/or some bizarre extension of a "no-no" drill. Otherwise, I sure felt bad for the dog.

 

[limiman12]

I have had plenty of OB issues with my dog, most of which caused by a rookie handler with more dog than know-how. But I still say give me the choice between a dog on the edge of out-of-control but that will swim 300 yards after a sailing duck in cold water, or take a back cast cast though a skim of ice without thinking twice about it vs a dog that has perfect OB but no drive or ability I know which I would choose. We go down in a glorious (or horrific depending on the vantage point) ball of flames from time to time but we have fun doing it!

OB to a certain point is a must depending on which game you are playing, but talent is a must no matter which game you are playing.

 

[Redgolden]

I have had plenty of OB issues with my dog, most of which caused by a rookie handler with more dog than know-how. But I still say give me the choice between a dog on the edge of out-of-control but that will swim 300 yards after a sailing duck in cold water, or take a back cast cast though a skim of ice without thinking twice about it vs a dog that has perfect OB but no drive or ability I know which I would choose. We go down in a glorious (or horrific depending on the vantage point) ball of flames from time to time but we have fun doing it!

OB to a certain point is a must depending on which game you are playing, but talent is a must no matter which game you are playing.

If we put the choise another way, what would be your choice : a loose cannon on which you don't have control on and a steady, consistant, well behaved, brave and obedient retriever ?

Thru all what I read, I don't think any of us train untalented dogs. So, to what you're saying and on a more semantical question, would it be reasonable to think that what is first seen as an untalented dog can simply be the wrong dog in the wrong hands or the wrong application according to the dog's potential (may perform elsewhere) ? In the same range, is talent and drive the same ?

 

[Ted Shih]

If we put the choise another way, what would be your choice : a loose cannon on which you don't have control on and a steady, consistant, well behaved, brave and obedient retriever ?

Thru all what I read, I don't think any of us train untalented dogs. So, to what you're saying and on a more semantical question, would it be reasonable to think that what is first seen as an untalented dog can simply be the wrong dog in the wrong hands or the wrong application according to the dog's potential (may perform elsewhere) ? In the same range, is talent and drive the same ?

First, the choice you pose is nothing more than an argumentative device. There is no choice. It is like saying would you rather have a one dollar bill or a hundred dollar bill.

Second, I think that there a more than a few untalented dogs - if by that one means a dog with the talent to obtain a FC/AFC with the right training and good handling. This happens sometimes by choice, sometimes by ignorance.

Third, I think the reality is that many people learn that their standards have been insufficiently high too late, and find themselves with a dog that is trial wise and generally incorrigible. Can it be fixed? Sometimes, with a tremendous amount of patience. Sometimes, not at all.

Fourth, I think if you know what you are looking for, and you spend enough time with a dog, you can see whether there is any underlying talent in a dog, sometimes there is, sometimes there is not.

Ultimately, it is difficult to discuss these issues without a specific animal, handler, and trainer to observe over time.

 

[Redgolden]

First, the choice you pose is nothing more than an argumentative device. There is no choice. It is like saying would you rather have a one dollar bill or a hundred dollar bill.

Second, I think that there a more than a few untalented dogs - if by that one means a dog with the talent to obtain a FC/AFC with the right training and good handling. This happens sometimes by choice, sometimes by ignorance.

Third, I think the reality is that many people learn that their standards have been insufficiently high too late, and find themselves with a dog that is trial wise and generally incorrigible. Can it be fixed? Sometimes, with a tremendous amount of patience. Sometimes, not at all.

Fourth, I think if you know what you are looking for, and you spend enough time with a dog, you can see whether there is any underlying talent in a dog, sometimes there is, sometimes there is not.

Ultimately, it is difficult to discuss these issues without a specific animal, handler, and trainer to observe over time.

Mr. Shih,

This reply was to the previous, not an argument to be started. If I wrote that, it was to illustrate that the initial statement wasn't holding the road. Take a moment to read the previous, then read mine and understand that there was no need to "carry on" punctuate on my case and try to tell me wrong. What you just have written is exactly the general idea I was bringing by being "spiritual ?".

By the way, thank you very much for all your replies. Even If it feels annoying when someone is always seeking to have me wrong on something, it allows me some good practice in English. Now, I think I had enough practicing for today... sorry to leave you with nothing ot pick on for the rest of the evening. (nothing personal, I assure you)

 

[Redgolden]

forgot this one !

 

[Randy Bohn]

Go get 'em Darrin!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Howard N]

Quote: Originally Posted by PackLeader
Watch this video then ask that question again..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G7skSjz2sl0

That wasn't thedogs fault, bad handling and bad instruction all at the same time.

Greg, you can't leave me here. Although I'm not a pro, I've been in this pro's position (Trish Jagoda, I think) trying to coach someone through a blind. I have felt the frustration of the handler always being 3 steps slow. Of them screwing up their dog, digging a deeper and deeper hole. A slow whistle can turn what should be a fairly clean decheating lesson into who knows what the dog got out of it.

What should have that pro done? What should she have said to make the handler understand and read the dog?

I've felt that frustration of trying to help and not getting through to the handler. I've kind of come to the point where it's best not saying a thing and letting the handler muddle through. At least if I don't help I can't be blamed.

I've been there with the handler all flustered, the flow of information to the dog interupted so he's all confused, and me wanting to beat my head against one of those trees.

Got any advice?

 

[DarrinGreene]

Darrin, what's your point? That you need obedience? Walt

I suppose so Walt.

 

[DarrinGreene]

I bet somebody could unteach it.

LOL I think I've actually seen it done.

 

[Jay Dufour]

I think he was referring to direct pressure there and back.Do you give the transmitter to the learning student and tell them when to burn? Just asking,not condeming.