[JS]

I'm not the trainer so I couldn't tell you what he learned.

Are you in this video?
Do you know the handler or the coach?
Are you familiar with the dog other than what we all can see in the video?
What is your connection with this dog/video?
Might help us understand what it is you are trying to demonstrate.

I'm willing to bet that he learned going around the tree is not the quickest or most comfortable path to the bird.

So are you saying you promote a method that primarily shows the dog what NOT to do and lets them stumble across what you want them to do?

I agree, we all come to a point where we let the dog figure out his mistake and solve the problem, but it sure appears this dog had no clue what he was supposed to do and tried everything until he randomly "stumbled" across the right answer.

Yes, there is a training technique that "heats up" all the wrong places to go and all the wrong things to do, and it can be successful with some dogs. But you're taking a chance that, before your dog figures out the right way, he will shut down. Not a chance I want to take.

Every day, someone posts a question on here asking for a drill, a solution, a quick fix for popping, bugging, no-going, loss of momentum, loss of confidence, etc., etc. Easier to prevent than to fix.

Obviously this dog decided to go around this time for what ever reason and the no0b was late on the sit. After that the drill falls apart because the guy couldn't handle the dog properly.

He decided to go around many, MANY times!! And it was apparent he did not know that was the wrong thing to do! Poor handling aside, after a couple tries, a well prepared dog would have spotted that obvious log and taken it.

I don't believe you let a dog slack and I don't hesitate to use pressure immediately when I think they are not trying, but if I saw a dog of mine doing this, I would move right up and show him what I wanted, then go back to the task at hand and do it. Then I'd go look for a couple more logs and repeat the concept.

I also believe that sometimes when a dog isn't 100% certain what to do, and "gives up", that a little pressure can be the KITA that gets them over the hump and willing to go ahead and try what they thought was right. (Contrary to what a lot of folks would think, that can be the greatest confidence booster!)

I don't think this dog was ready for that approach. Then again, you sound as though you are familiar with the dog's background. I wish you would share that with us, Otherwise, I'm not sure if you are presenting this clip as an example of good training or bad training???

Originally Posted by PackLeader
Watch this video then ask that question again..

JS

 

[Goldenboy]

Otherwise, I'm not sure if you are presenting this clip as an example of good training or bad training???



JS

I got the sense that he didn't know what he was presenting in the first place. And I get the sense that he doesn't know what he's defending now.

 

[ErinsEdge]

I got the sense that he didn't know what he was presenting in the first place. And I get the sense that he doesn't know what he's defending now.

That's what I get too. A huge disconnect with teaching vs pressure

 

[cakaiser]

Just to play devil's advocate here;
It's possible not enough pressure was used.

How do we know what level that dog is ? Perhaps it is an advanced dog, that runs quite well for the trainer.
Perhaps it doesn't run so well for the owner.
Perhaps the dog is educated, and blowing off the owner.
Perhaps the whole point of the drill was to get the dog's attention for the owner. Fair, or not...;-)

As someone who knows this first hand, running for the trainer, vs running for the owner, can be night and day.
I think it's unfair to judge without knowing exactly what the trainer was hoping to accomplish.

And, I agree with Pete, didn't look like that dog's world was really rocked.....

 

[Evan]

Just to play devil's advocate here;
It's possible not enough pressure was used.

I'll accept that premise as a possibility. But more evident is that there sure didn't look like much teaching, either.

Evan

 

[greg magee]

I got the sense that he didn't know what he was presenting in the first place. And I get the sense that he doesn't know what he's defending now.

Nice touch, ouch!

 

[mjh345]

I got the sense that he didn't know what he was presenting in the first place. And I get the sense that he doesn't know what he's defending now.

Bingo, I get the feeling packleader may be WAY WAY over his pay grade here

 

[PackLeader]

If you don't understand why the dog made so many mistakes than I can't help you understand. Just look at the guys arms! His back cast came from the hip.
.
You guys that like to pretend this is a dog training video.
Try reading the video description!

 

[ErinsEdge]

If you don't understand why the dog made so many mistakes than I can't help you understand. Just look at the guys arms! His back cast came from the hip.

That's what you took away from that video?

 

[Evan]

You guys that like to pretend this is a dog training video.
Try reading the video description!

Are we still talking about THIS clip titled "Gun Dog Training"? Is the person doing the instruction your mentor? Perhaps I've missed that.

Evan

 

[JS]

I think the description has shifted from "dog training" to "handling skills".

If you don't understand why the dog made so many mistakes than I can't help you understand. Just look at the guys arms! His back cast came from the hip.

I give up ... I don't think we're going to get a coherent response.

JS

 

[PackLeader]

I already explained what I got out of this video with my first post. I already told you the dangers of the dog shutting down before your over paid self ever mentioned it. Funny how that dog didn't shut down isn't it..

I do not know the coach, I do not know the handler and I do not know the dog.
I know I have seen all the other videos the kennel has online so I could see how they rain and what they do before I gave my under pay grade opinions.

Again, how would a dog with less obedience have helped this Guy?

 

[Pals]

this thread is like a car wreck, you wish it didn't happen, you hope no one is hurt, but you can't help but look as you go by.....


my neck is sore regards,

 

[AmiableLabs]

To Pete and cakaiser,

Whatever any other factors involved, whatever the level of training of the dog, whatever the level of experience of the handler, whatever the reasons -- the dog is obviously confused! It is time to simplify.

You start over from closer to the log, removing other factors such as terrain changes and distractions. Even turn it into a mark if necessary. Build on success, and back up, increasing the distance, until you finally get to the distance we see in the video.

Let me reiterate. If they are trying to first teach the dog to go over the log at that distance, it is inexcusable. But even if they are not, even assuming the dog has been properly trained to go over obstacles, in this case, this time, the dog is confused, it is time to pick up and simplify!

I don't teach a dog to go over an obstacle in the field, much less at 50+ yards. I begin teaching the dog to go over obstacles in the yard with "No-No" drills, and then move into the field. In the field I start with flat and featureless terrain, and build from there.

After success with all that, I would finally come to a situation similar to what we have on the video.

What I, and I assume the others here, find the most egregious about the video is the dog is confused and the handler and the trainer continue to nick or burn it. That is borderline abuse.

 

[Evan]

this thread is like a car wreck, you wish it didn't happen, you hope no one is hurt, but you can't help but look as you go by.....


my neck is sore regards,

Nancy,

You've spoken to my heart. I only hope some good comes of it. I guess I still have to look!

Evan

 

[PackLeader]

How can you say its abuse when you have no idea what level the collar is on?

 

[AmiableLabs]

How can you say its abuse when you have no idea what level the collar is on?

And you are a pro trainer?

It doesn't matter what level the collar is on! It doesn't matter if you are hitting it with rolled up newspaper! It doesn't matter if all you are doing is yelling at it!

What makes it abusive is the principle --you don't make a correction when the dog is confused! :roll:

 

[Evan]

What I, and I assume the others here, find the most egregious about the video is the dog is confused and the handler and the trainer continue to nick or burn it. That is borderline abuse.

In support of Kevin's actual assertion (with which I fully agree), this brief passage is from the script for my Puppy Program DVD in the chapter on Operant Conditioning. This is a text book definition, not something contrived for the sake of argument.

“Remember that these definitions are based on their actual effect on the behavior in question: they must reduce or strengthen the behavior to be considered a consequence and be defined as a punishment or reinforcement. Pleasures meant as rewards but that do not strengthen a behavior are indulgences, not reinforcement; aversives meant as a behavior weakener but which do not weaken a behavior are abuse, not punishment.

I hope this provides some clarity in regard to what was actually said, and the reasoning for it. Perhaps it may also illuminate the reason for so much of the concern expressed about the video clip under discussion.

Evan

 

[PackLeader]

What makes it abusive is the principle --you don't make a correction when the dog is confused! :roll:

So no pro trainers enforce the whistle sit with an e-collar? The dog is clearly confused if they are running in the wrong direction. When you blow the whistle you are correcting a confused dog are you not?

Define confused..

 

[Howard N]

When you are watching the video it says "Gun Dog Training" at the top. Could that be the category of video's we're watching?

When you look off to the side it shows tjblklabs which I assume is the author of the video and under that it says, "Learning how to run a dog on a blind retrieve" which I assumed was the author's title of the video.