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[Your own example suggests your dog is not dominant all the time - the mat -vs - the bed. If your dog were dominant by nature why would it change depending on the circumstance? Sounds pretty fluid to me./QUOTE]

I always thought dogs were contexual,,,, hmmmm
 
Yes, Pete! You've got it by Jove! Whether a dog is in a dominant relationship with another dog, or maybe a human, is both fluid and contextual! So, it's not in the dog - it's in the relationship and the context.
 
I don't think dogs are capable of being disobedient simply because being obedient implies a sense of duty to obey - some expectation placed upon the dog that they don't grasp, or agree to. So, I don't think dogs have any sense of duty to obey.
:lol: :lol: :lol:
FORCE FETCHED DOGS DO!!!

Snick, don't you remember ANY of those discussions from a couple years ago. I KNOW you were told 100 times, that is the purpose of FFing a dog.

So if you refuse to try it, I'm not surprised you believe the above. ;-)

JS
 
Yes, Walt, even in wolf packs. More recent research views a wolf pack as a family composed of a breeding pair, the current year's pups and older siblings. All work cooperatively to insure the survival of the pups and therefor the pack...

It seems to me that all social species need some order, some structure, in order to be social. And, that's why (me thinks) dogs living with humans need, and inately appreciate structure and rules they can understand. Most behaviorists believe misbehavior by companion dogs occurs because the structure and rules aren't clear. So, the dogs start experimenting with behavior, trying to determine where the boundaries are. And, that's where they get into trouble.

But, that does not require a rigid pack hierarchy, or a struggle for dominance. Perhaps the dominance displayed is a dog trying to fill a void in leadership and structure that they need to be in a state of equilibrium.
Snick,
Again we have the same outlook...
Most "defiance" in dogs stems from lack of understanding. The dog does not understand CLEARLY what is expected/asked/required or the dog senses a lack of leadership (note not Dominance - not a "fan" of the Alpha Theories).
The domesticated dog NEEDS consistency, clairity, and concise direction.
They want structure & direction...and if the boundries are "fuzzy" or expected consequences are varried, the dog will "Test" those boundries.

Charlie
 
I think I'm going to throw up... Seriously

Dogs like people do what they need to do to keep their comfort level. Like people they will manipulate their environment to be Happy/Comfortable........

Teach a dog what it needs to do and then fairly hold them accountable....
Very insitful Angie,,, ding ding chicken diner:p
now this may be the first hint to packleaders method of e collar teaching methods;)
 
"I don't think dogs have any sense of duty to obey.-
(but) FF'ed dogs do"

Wrong. It is not a "sense of duty" but a fear of consequences.
Classical Operant Conditioning...
Hogwash!! :p
A sense of duty can't be instilled?? :rolleyes:

JS
 
"I don't think dogs have any sense of duty to obey.-
(but) FF'ed dogs do"

Wrong. It is not a "sense of duty" but a fear of consequences.
Classical Operant Conditioning...
It is just semantics

You say toe mah toe
He says toe may toe

You say "fear of consequences"
He says "duty to obey"

Toe may toe, toe mah toe, po tay toe, po tah toe,
Let's call the whole thing off
 
:lol: :lol: :lol:
FORCE FETCHED DOGS DO!!!

Snick, don't you remember ANY of those discussions from a couple years ago. I KNOW you were told 100 times, that is the purpose of FFing a dog.

So if you refuse to try it, I'm not surprised you believe the above. ;-)

JS
Balderdash!

Force fetched dogs drop birds, mouth birds, and refuse casts, have no-gos, and just about everything else. I've been watching for too long to believe that FF makes a dog bullet proof with regard to obedience. If what you say were true, all you would have to do is FF a dog, and you wouldn't need an e-collar to enforce 'GO, SIT, COME!' If what you say were true, there would be no need to enforce FF by 'pinching' a dog into picking up a bumper - after being FF. I've seen enough of it to be convinced that FF is clearly not bullet proof, no matter how many times I've been 'told'!
 
Hogwash!! :p
A sense of duty can't be instilled?? :rolleyes:

JS
NO. Not in the true meaning of the concept...
Consider you have a "sense of duty" to provide, protect, care for your family.
Now if someone "Forces" you to do that, that is not of your own free will and choice...simply there is no Sense of Duty because that requires an innate value you place based on feelings/emotions.
 
It is just semantics

You say toe mah toe
He says toe may toe

You say "fear of consequences"
He says "duty to obey"

Toe may toe, toe mah toe, po tay toe, po tah toe,
Let's call the whole thing off
Nonsense. You're equating dogs emotional and coginitive abilities with humans. Semantics is a verbal skill that dogs don't have or understand.
 
Nonsense. You're equating dogs emotional and coginitive abilities with humans. Semantics is a verbal skill that dogs don't have or understand.
You think "fear of consequences" implies neither emotional or cognitive elements, and that "duty to obey" does

What difference does it make in the end, anyway?

I think you suffer from paralysis by analysis

You are making this way too difficult

And I am going to heed my resolution and stop feeding the trolls

Spock out
 
In addition to that contextual principle, dogs are also opportunists. Sure they know how to avoid corrections by adopting the right behavior. At the same time, a dog can also adopt the same behavior if it's rewarded and the other (the wrong one) is ignored. Repeating the positive reinforcement makes the behavior far more interesting to the dog (this builds on its opportunism). When a wrong move is done by the dog, I get back one or two steps back and rebuilt from where it was ok and split the steps to advance because I may have done something too fast (and the dog didn't understand what I wanted from him). So, when a dog is showing to be "desobedient", it is more likely it didn't understand what it was told and his opportunism may have not been reinforced enough in that action.
 
NO. Not in the true meaning of the concept...
Consider you have a "sense of duty" to provide, protect, care for your family.
Now if someone "Forces" you to do that, that is not of your own free will and choice...simply there is no Sense of Duty because that requires an innate value you place based on feelings/emotions.
Pack leadership is never won by force. Even if you are arn't a dog trainer you are teaching the dog somthing about yourself each time you interact each other. Pack leadership is won or lost by how we interact with our dogs on a daily basis. Not by how much pressure we put on them.
 
You think "fear of consequences" implies neither emotional or cognitive elements, and that "duty to obey" does

What difference does it make in the end, anyway?

I think you suffer from paralysis by analysis

You are making this way too difficult

And I am going to heed my resolution and stop feeding the trolls

Spock out
Wow, Ted! You've really stretched what I said to way beyond what I said. And, you're not making any sense at all. Disappointing...

But, speaking of Trolls, you're the one who jumped into a discussion, that was much more in depth than your snide little remark about making things too complicated - without, I might add, an explanation or justification for your remark. You really are desperate.

But, by all means, stop feeding the 'trolls', or just plain go away until you have something constructive to offer. Your choice!
 
This has been interesting, to see how people interact trying to figure out how our dogs learn to interact with us.

We all learn by watching other, more successful trainer/handlers, we read books and buy videos. We all use similar techniques... or at least our methods frequently overlap. Meanwhile the dogs (who are all different) read us and adapt to and learn from us and we will never know how they process all this in their little brains. We humans want to have a conceptual framework for almost everything we do in our lives and we bring this very human need to our dog relationships.

(Forgive me... I'm into my 2nd glass of Shiraz. Or maybe it's the third. Pffft! Whatever.)

Of course, dogs need to be taught, and will get confused and anxious when they "don't understand". But at some point... GET REAL! They can give you the finger on a school blind they've run a jillion times. They reliably do mark selection a hundred times flawlessly until there is that ONE temptation they can't resist and BAM!... they're running the test by their own rules, (almost always in the third series when it's all on the line... know what I mean?)

I dare anyone on this thread to tell me that dogs don't have larceny in their souls!!!!
 
Sorry, I can't resist. But, dogs don't have larceny in their souls. But, my Chessie is a pirate and will pillage and plunder the countertop at every opportunity ;)

And, with that, good night!
 
Sorry, I can't resist. But, dogs don't have larceny in their souls. But, my Chessie is a pirate and will pillage and plunder the countertop at every opportunity ;)

And, with that, good night!
Had a friend that put a 13 pound turkey on the counter to thaw. When she returned home a few hours later, the turkey had vanished and her Chessy had frostbite on his lips.
 
Balderdash!

Force fetched dogs drop birds, mouth birds, and refuse casts, have no-gos, and just about everything else. I've been watching for too long to believe that FF makes a dog bullet proof with regard to obedience. If what you say were true, all you would have to do is FF a dog, and you wouldn't need an e-collar to enforce 'GO, SIT, COME!' If what you say were true, there would be no need to enforce FF by 'pinching' a dog into picking up a bumper - after being FF. I've seen enough of it to be convinced that FF is clearly not bullet proof, no matter how many times I've been 'told'!
Pay attention, Snick. No one said FF produces a "bullet proof" dog. :rolleyes: I said it will instill a sense of duty to obey. And if they have a sense of duty to obey, all that other stuff is a whole lot easier.

The original post is talking about a dog that won't come back in the house when called, for God's sake.

NO. Not in the true meaning of the concept...
Consider you have a "sense of duty" to provide, protect, care for your family.
Now if someone "Forces" you to do that, that is not of your own free will and choice...simply there is no Sense of Duty because that requires an innate value you place based on feelings/emotions.
Dr Charles, you can tell your story to the Marines. :cool:

JS
 
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