[Buzz]

I've trained a ton of dogs with "so much drive" doesn't mean that they won't need to be forced away from me at sometime? "Drive" and "Go where sent" can be 2 whole different ball games.

Angie

I meant to say, "go as sent," but I like "go where sent" better.

 

[golden dude]

I for one was simply ignorant of the how, what, and why of FTP. I am now seeing benefits of doing FTP.

I am not sure if I will back up and put my current dog through it. I have already straightened out bannana line, gone through swim-by, and nearly through TT, he has been corrected for no-go and understands he WILL go.

Perhaps I have already done most of what FTP accomplishes. (although in a drawn out kind a way)

I will be doing FTP with next dog.

Steve

 

[Brad B]

Without havning read all the back and forth on this thread, I'll give my .02. FTP is an extension of FF. Predominately our handling is built around a "back" command which the dog needs to know unconditionaly. Without it, I think you would see a number of holes or problems develop in your program. And I think sensitive vs. non-sensitive dogs are just handled different. For example, I've had people ask me that since they had a 'sensitive' dog that already retrieved they should not utilize FTP. In short I tell them, the trained retrieve is system built on steps and skipping steps can lead to a fall.

 

[PackLeader]

FTP is no different than anything else we have already trained the dog to do with an e-collar. We fixed the loose heel, we fixed the sloppy sit, and we fixed the hard mouth. Why would we skip the most important part? Control at a distance.

It’s nothing more than teaching the dog that we have a standard way of doing things that it must abide by. Just like every other thing we have already taught them using the collar.

The reason we do all this is for control when the collar comes off. Dogs learn by consistent repetition how things get done. If you only do it sometimes then you can expect to get results sometimes, especially when the collar comes off.

Good trainers develop a style in all of the dogs they train. How they apply the collar pressure “even during FTP” is a great part of where that style comes from.

I know some “styles” so well that I can see it in the dog and say “YES” that dog was trained by so and so. I can see the results of the collar training in the dog’s body language.

It’s that type of consistency that creates great dogs every time.

 

[PackLeader]

I meant to say, "go as sent," but I like "go where sent" better.

I like go where scent the best

 

[JS]

.....
I Mean eventually you are going to take the collar off, and expect results, I think based on compulsion that you built in you pup!! I know I don't make sense all the time, but I figure we are actually agreeing on this..?

I don't think so.

The collar is their "jock strap". ;-) It is on every time we train and most of the time when we are just "walking in the woods". It is a part of getting out of the truck. If I were to forget to have it in my hand, they would probably look at me and wait like we were forgetting something.

That doesn't mean we are going to USE it. The great, great majority of the time we don't use it but they are always wearing it and it is always on. Whether or not we use it depends on what THEY do.

On game day, they are so amped up they probably don't realize we "forgot" it.

JS

 

[BrianG.]

For people that do not force. How do you correct a no go ?
________
EASY VAPE SLIDE

 

[Byron Musick]

I don't think so.

The collar is their "jock strap". ;-) JS

JS,
I agree! I was actually refering to taking the collar off during a hunt test or other event which requires it. My dog will wear one if he goes hunting, but a hunt test I wish we could!!
Anytime we train we wears it!!! Does not mean we have to use it either, but there in case we do!

 

[PackLeader]

FTP also has great benefits in SAR dogs. The P being People not Pile.

You can see in the video some of the distractions that can be overcome. The distractions can be both environmental or man made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xlBHCR199pU

 

[golden dude]

I disagree about the e-collar being a "jock strap". I feel you need to be able to correct the dog in differant ways. (more than one correction tool in the bag) Otherwise as someone eluded to, the dog will get wise to the fact that the collar isn't there on "game day"

I am by no means anti collar. I use it probably half the time. However due to a training tactic, my dog also thinks every judge(or anyone behind him) may have a heeling stick. That does nothing for correcting at a distance, but it is sure handy at the line...

Steve

 

[golden dude]

For people that do not force. How do you correct a no go ?

Both of my dogs are well cc'd. I finished ff with dog at heel, toss a short bumper, command fetch as I applied constant stimulation, did not let up till they had bumper. Kinda a very abbreviated version of FTP..

on the rare occasion I get a no-go (for whatever reason) a nick back always works.

Steve

 

[PackLeader]

Both of my dogs are well cc'd. I finished ff with dog at heel, toss a short bumper, command fetch as I applied constant stimulation, did not let up till they had bumper. Kinda a very abbreviated version of FTP..

on the rare occasion I get a no-go (for whatever reason) a nick back always works.

Steve

That's the great part it always works, now all you need is repartition

 

[JS]

Both of my dogs are well cc'd. I finished ff with dog at heel, toss a short bumper, command fetch as I applied constant stimulation, did not let up till they had bumper. Kinda a very abbreviated version of FTP..

on the rare occasion I get a no-go (for whatever reason) a nick back always works.

Steve

And how would you do that if this was one of the rare ocassions he was not wearng his "equipment"?
;-)

JS

 

[golden dude]

And how would you do that if this was one of the rare ocassions he was not wearng his "equipment"?
;-)

JS

Several ways- Heeling stick swat on the ass(then repeat command)if dog is at heel. A angry sounding NO-"command" has always worked when e-collar is not on. Running at the dog when he picks up a PB clears that crap out of his head fast.

Again, I am pro-collar. I just think its a mistake to let the dog think the e-collar is the only way they could be "corrected"


Steve

 

[Buzz]

Again, I am pro-collar. I just think its a mistake to let the dog think the e-collar is the only way they could be "corrected"


Steve

Always having the collar on does not preclude your giving corrections by other means.

 

[JS]

Always having the collar on does not preclude your giving corrections by other means.

Yes. I agree it is good for the dog to know there are other enforcements, and I do that, but with the collar on.

I don't think yelling at the dog or running at him in a threatening manner is something I want to do.

JS

 

[Evan]

Several ways- Heeling stick swat on the ass(then repeat command)if dog is at heel. A angry sounding NO-"command" has always worked when e-collar is not on. Running at the dog when he picks up a PB clears that crap out of his head fast.

Again, I am pro-collar. I just think its a mistake to let the dog think the e-collar is the only way they could be "corrected"


Steve

I'm a trainer who has long believed the e-collar is over used by a great many trainers. It's often used at a higher level than needed, or on continuous when a nick would have been adequate. But even more, I think it's easy to fall into using it for everything.

One trap is leaning on it to the exclusion of other good tools, like a heeling stick. But another trap is using its convenience so much that the trainer becomes lazy, and forgets to just simplify.

Big heeling stick fan here...

Evan

 

[PackLeader]

People who train with collars for ring sport and many other venues never use sticks and they all get great results. I guess if you never have that crutch to fall on you find other ways around it.

 

[PackLeader]

I think that people get confused when we say we use the collar for everything. Obviously we teach one thing completely before starting the next. That is why a collar program is so important. We teach heel until we no longer need the collar for it before we start correcting for somthing else. If you try correcting a dog for everything before it learns everything in a step-by-step program then obviously you will have problems.

 

[Evan]

People who train with collars for ring sport and many other venues never use sticks and they all get great results. I guess if you never have that crutch to fall on you find other ways around it.

So everyone always shares the first place trophy?

Crutch? You think any training tool other than an e-collar is a crutch? Why do I keep getting the steady notion that you type first, and think later?

Evan