[Final Flight Retrievers]

A cold blind (at a HUNT TEST) is a blind run before the marks. Does it make sense now?

yes...my thought would be to run the blind after the marks..sorry I wasn't more specific

 

[Final Flight Retrievers]

I agree with Kristie on this...dogs should be trained to "see water get in water"...[/QUOTE]


Master test should include a land & water series...
I dis-agree with that statement all togeather.IMHO the dog should take the best line to the fall area not if they "see water get into the water" mentality. If the line is land take the land if the line is land,water,land then take that line. don't just get wet because you see water...just my .02

 

[ReedCreek]

I agree with Kristie on this...dogs should be trained to "see water get in water"...[/QUOTE]


Master test should include a land & water series...
I dis-agree with that statement all togeather.IMHO the dog should take the best line to the fall area not if they "see water get into the water" mentality. If the line is land take the land if the line is land,water,land then take that line. don't just get wet because you see water...just my .02

A Master test does include a land and water series; however, if it were my test, I would try to have the land portion of the test so that the dog does not have water directly behind them; that said, if that is what the judge sets up (water directly behind); than that is the test we would run; and I would work with it?I just would not train that way.

My thinking is that dogs naturally will avoid water (and I am not challenging the ?my dog loves water? mentality); I mean the ?my dog is smart enough to recognize that there are faster ways to get this bird" mentality?. I do not want my dog to think that if he stops short of the water, he may find a bird. Yes, it will probably cause me issues in some tests. I have run a few HT where judges have set ups where the bird falls with water behind them and my dog will go flying into the water (she has quickly figured out it is not out there); however, I have seen many more tests and attended many more practice sessions where dogs have failed the test because of their reluctance to take the water. I know there are differing opinions on this theory and would love hearing them; however, I do not want to hijack this thread.
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D2C PLATFORM

 

[fishduck]

I agree with Kristie on this...dogs should be trained to "see water get in water"...[/QUOTE]


Master test should include a land & water series...
I dis-agree with that statement all togeather.IMHO the dog should take the best line to the fall area not if they "see water get into the water" mentality. If the line is land take the land if the line is land,water,land then take that line. don't just get wet because you see water...just my .02

In theory I agree that a Master level dog should be able to pick up a duck where it falls. But sometimes this puts the well trained dogs at a disatvantage. Most dogs are trained to get in the water when they see it. No way do I want to award the bank runners and the dogs that don't want to get back in the water. In this situation the dogs training works against the bird placement.

One of my pet peeves is a test set up contrary to training that is going to cause issues with a young dog.
Mark Land

P.S. I have immensely enjoyed the discussion of mark and blind placement in a real world setting. Hopefully we won't hijack this thread.

 

[ReedCreek]

In theory I agree that a Master level dog should be able to pick up a duck where it falls. But sometimes this puts the well trained dogs at a disatvantage. Most dogs are trained to get in the water when they see it. No way do I want to award the bank runners and the dogs that don't want to get back in the water. In this situation the dogs training works against the bird placement.

One of my pet peeves is a test set up contrary to training that is going to cause issues with a young dog.
Mark Land

P.S. I have immensely enjoyed the discussion of mark and blind placement in a real world setting. Hopefully we won't hijack this thread.

Thank you, Fishduck, you said it so much clearer than I was able too
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CHRYSLER AIRFLOW

 

[Final Flight Retrievers]

 

[david gibson]

I agree with Kristie on this...dogs should be trained to "see water get in water"...[/QUOTE]


Master test should include a land & water series...
I dis-agree with that statement all togeather.IMHO the dog should take the best line to the fall area not if they "see water get into the water" mentality. If the line is land take the land if the line is land,water,land then take that line. don't just get wet because you see water...just my .02

maybe refined to "see water in the path i am headed, get in water"

 

[Final Flight Retrievers]

maybe refined to "see water in the path i am headed, get in water"

again I'm not following your thought process...the line to the bird is just that the line to the birds.. the shortest distance between two points is a straight line...correct....... and that's how we teach our dogs to run...a straight-line. so it should not matter what is to the left,right or behind the dog. the goal is to run a true straight -line.......and at this level these dog should be able to perform this tast.IMHO.. I'm really learning alot from this thread...thank you... my goal is to become a master judge in the next year or so and this feedback is greatly appreciated.

 

[Guest]

I agree with Kristie on this...dogs should be trained to "see water get in water"...[/QUOTE]


Master test should include a land & water series...
I dis-agree with that statement all togeather.IMHO the dog should take the best line to the fall area not if they "see water get into the water" mentality. If the line is land take the land if the line is land,water,land then take that line. don't just get wet because you see water...just my .02

BUT you need to consider the FOUR judging areas -- marking, style, TRAINABILITY AND PERSERVERANCE. If you set up marks that dogs can "fall" into, then you are missing being able to really test marking and perserverance.

YES, dogs SHOULD be able to go wherever the bird is ABSOLUTELY. BUT, when you are TESTING them, you need to set things up that can, as best possible, delineate between weather the dog performs well and is well-trained or if he just happens to end up on a mark. If marks are land marks, they should IDEALLY clearly be land marks.

Dogs shouldn't enter water "just for the sake of entering water" but marks shouldn't be set up that encourage cheating, either.

-K

 

[Guest]

yes...my thought would be to run the blind after the marks..sorry I wasn't more specific

I'm sorry I'm not being clear. I wasn't commenting on how YOU set up the test, I was simply saying how **I** would run it. I would run the blind first as a cold blind given the scenario you presented. In general, I do NOT like cold blinds (blinds run before marks in a test). BUT in your scenario, if you ran that blind first, the dog would have banked on that shore once. THEN, on the marks, you're asking him to swim down the shore, which would test his perserverance, marking and trainability. Because he's already banked there once, on the blind, there's a chance he would be tempted to bank there again or maybe just past it, but possibly not swim all the way to the mark, which appears to be past a channel that goes off to the right.

-K

 

[Guest]

(snip) I'm really learning alot from this thread...thank you... my goal is to become a master judge in the next year or so and this feedback is greatly appreciated.

This is a great discussion and although we've used pics and test setups before, it seems there are more interested parties and a much deeper discusson this time around.

I've run master test for 14 years, but have not judged, although do hope to in the future. Just so you can take my opinion for what it's worth (possibly nothing?? LOL)... Remember WHAT YOU ARE SCORING - marking, perserverance, trainability and style. Your test needs to be set up in a manner that you can actually score those things as fairly as possible. If you are just setting marks up with the idea that "dogs should go straight" -- it's too superficial. Yes, dogs should "go straight" BUT, even more importantly, they should NAVIGATE THE FACTORS en route to a mark.

Don't just look for straight lines for the sake of "straight lines". Look for marks that fairly challenge a dog and provide you a way to actually judge master level work. If you just go out and put a bunch of marks up without thoroughly evaluating all the factors from the line to the mark -- can you be sure that you actually know that the dog was WORKING and THINKING to pick up the marks?

The great thing is that I feel judging has come SO far in the last decade. I think we, as a group, have gotten so much better educated regarding factors and fair tests. There are more and more people setting up better tests. So there's plenty of opportunity to observe, ask and learn.

-K

 

[ReedCreek]

If you are just setting marks up with the idea that "dogs should go straight" -- it's too superficial. Yes, dogs should "go straight" BUT, even more importantly, they should NAVIGATE THE FACTORS en route to a mark.

IMO, Bingo!
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Glass Pipe Pictures

 

[golden dude]

Could an experienced Master handler or judge incorperate into some of these "test photo's" what they consider a reasonable fairway to the blinds?

These photo's would be a great way to help newer handlers SEE what would be considered reasonable work.
Thanks
Steve

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Here is a pic of a field I often use for hunt test set ups.

I have enjoyed the mark and blind discussions. Maybe this pic will help.
Mark L.

P. S. The cover was low at this time but we worked on 3 peats angling through the tall grass on the terrace

I find it interesting that almost every test drawn on this diagram involved tight converging birds and an in inline of some sort. Tight fall areas, then expect the dogs to run a double blind right over the top of 3 marks. Makes me wonder if some aren't confusing testing training vs marking.....

/Paul

 

[Guest]

Could an experienced Master handler or judge incorperate into some of these "test photo's" what they consider a reasonable fairway to the blinds?

These photo's would be a great way to help newer handlers SEE what would be considered reasonable work.
Thanks
Steve

I don't think you can look at a fairway per se as much as you're looking for a dog's response to a handler's cast. You can have a dog that may stay in the fairway, but scallops all the way to a blind -- with multiple cast refusals....

In my land blind examples, for instance -- if the dog were to refuse a cast and end up on the other side of one of the haybales, it may be a hard recovery -- or a quick one, with a good dog.

For me, when I judge, I want to see the dog respond to the handler and get back on track asap even if it gets to the edge of the fairway for whatever reason.

If a dog runs a blind and gets outside the fairway, but comes back with a single really great cast, should that dog be dropped? OR a dog stays in the fairway, but has lots of whistles and scallops... Which one, if either, is a better blind? Or do they both get dropped? It's just a "per dog" evaluation and while the fairway DOES come into play, it's handling within it that's more important, I think.

-K

 

[Final Flight Retrievers]

Could an experienced Master handler or judge incorperate into some of these "test photo's" what they consider a reasonable fairway to the blinds?

These photo's would be a great way to help newer handlers SEE what would be considered reasonable work.
Thanks
Steve

Originally Posted by Kristie Wilder

I've run master test for 14 years,

guess you don't qualify Kristie.....

 

[Guest]

I find it interesting that almost every test drawn on this diagram involved tight converging birds and an in inline of some sort. Tight fall areas, then expect the dogs to run a double blind right over the top of 3 marks. Makes me wonder if some aren't confusing testing training vs marking.....

/Paul

I don't think that it matters what scent and fall areas are en route to any blind, provided the marks have been picked up. But I don't like when birds are all thrown "in a pile" for marks, that's for sure.

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

I don't think that it matters what scent and fall areas are en route to any blind, provided the marks have been picked up. But I don't like when birds are all thrown "in a pile" for marks, that's for sure.

Ya but look at the blinds people have picked. No real factors other than the old falls. How many judges out there are going to ding the dog for slowing down or dropping its nose as it navigates over the old fall? Worse yet, if a dog tucks behind a bail, is the dog not out of sight and thus out of control risking being dropped?

/Paul

 

[Guest]

Ya but look at the blinds people have picked. No real factors other than the old falls. How many judges out there are going to ding the dog for slowing down or dropping its nose as it navigates over the old fall? Worse yet, if a dog tucks behind a bail, is the dog not out of sight and thus out of control risking being dropped?

/Paul

If a judge drops a dog for being out of sight behind a haybale, they're a dope... That's the point of the haybale -- IF the dog gets behind it, can the handler recover him and/or will the dog recover or pop out the other side, have difficulty handling back, etc.?

I do think some of the blinds presented are "too" straightforward. But not every blind can or should have a ton of meat in it either. Really, how often is a [hunt test] land blind a total disaster unless you have some really rough factors to work with?

-K

 

[22899]

Makes me wonder if some aren't confusing testing training vs marking.....

I absolutly believe this is what is happening.

Remember,, MARKING is of PRIMARY importance.

I think many want to TEST TRAINING concepts,and forget what the written STANDARD of what ever level or venue they are Judging.

Marking is of Primary Importance.

Good controll is required in blinds, disturbing as little cover as possible, in both instances.

While I agree in TRAINING, I would want the dog to understand "SEEK WATER", but in tests, I know for a factI I will be required to run a dog CONTRARY to that training~~~~ Just like hunting~~~ And a Master level dog should be able to handle this. Contrary situations WILL happen!
both in HUNTING and testing. Its inevitable.

In certain situations It would be impossible to put the bird on the far side of a Land, water ,Land ,water senario blind. The distance that that might create would make the Blind/Mark Illegal for distance rules within the venue.
The judges are gonna use the terrain that is available to them, and keep it within the rules as best He/She can.

JMHDAO

Gooser