[greg magee]

set up and ran this mark today, using a bumperboy. wind directly at my back, total distance pushing 200 yds. i purposely just let him go on his own to see what he would do - no handling going or coming. immediately to my left is a major freeway so there are a lot of distractions and noises.

my perspective from the history of training this dog is he tends to go fat when in doubt or has a longer than usual land run before water when there is no bumper/duck in sight when making the water entry - on marks only - on a blind he will hit a very acute angle and maintain a reasonable line fairly consistently.

looking at his path, one might think he winded the fall, but with wind behind my back this is not the case.

so to tighten this up would you come back in 2-3 weeks and run it again as a 2-step pattern blind, starting from the middle strip of land for step one then backing up to the original line, do the same above as 2 marks, or do what i did today and start handling about midway through the first water?

in the meantime run similar shorter concepts elsewhere?

for the record, i try to handle on marks only as a last resort for fear of ever creating a popping issue.

zoomed in view, at least he didnt avoid the thick weeds going and coming

My analysis is that the hill upfront pushed him right and he never corrected from that. He obviously had a nice mark but decided to use up the rest of the real estate getting there.

I personally would have handled right up front and got the right line. You don't have to worry about him popping as long as you keep everything in balance. But that is a beautiful mark with a lot going on and you condoned all the wrong behaviours because your worried about him popping Not a good idea in my book. But it is a great mark.

 

[Buzz]

this nothing totally new to him and not a huge jump forward, he handled this mix of marks and blinds at near 100% success 2 months ago:

Looking at this, it occurs to me that you don't want to train the dog to expect to always find a bird at the water's edge. Make him get out of the water and run deep.

 

[david gibson]

My analysis is that the hill upfront pushed him right and he never corrected from that. He obviously had a nice mark but decided to use up the rest of the real estate getting there.

I personally would have handled right up front and got the right line. You don't have to worry about him popping as long as you keep everything in balance. But that is a beautiful mark with a lot going on and you condoned all the wrong behaviours because your worried about him popping Not a good idea in my book. But it is a great mark.

no, that is not what i (purposely) did. i saw him deviate and i let him this time only so i could see what he would do and i would have fodder for discussion here to talk about the best way to handle this in the future. i never asked or thought "is this ok". i know it is not, if i did not want to create a discussion and learn, i would have handled early, got the bird, and we would have nothing to discuss. i wanted to discuss a real scenario, so i created one. i wanted to discuss whether others here would handle early, recall and resend, rerun the same mark and when, maybe even fire another bumper mid-way, all this is good input.

give me an hour or so and i will post todays results.....

 

[BonMallari]

David, for the first time you have me confused so I will tread lightly and hope you dont take this the wrong way since I consider us friends

Are you looking for validation on the way you train or with your methods ? because I read input from two guys with loads of experience ( Howard and Greg M) and honest input and its almost like you want to debate them on their advice....IMHO you are back in a testing mode with your dog and looking at a piece of ground and asking what can I throw to test him today...instead of what does my dog need to learn or is weak at and can I teach him that concept on this piece of ground...

If i am wrong I apologize, because I sure do like your pictures and diagrams and would like to try some of those retrieves some day with you and your dog

 

[greg magee]

so to tighten this up would you come back in 2-3 weeks and run it again as a 2-step pattern blind, starting from the middle strip of land for step one then backing up to the original line, do the same above as 2 marks, or do what i did today and start handling about midway through the first water?for the record, i try to handle on marks only as a last resort for fear of ever creating a popping issue.

]

You asked the question (see bold above) I answered the question as posted (what would I do). There was no need for rebuttal.

 

[greg magee]

no, that is not what i (purposely) did. i saw him deviate and i let him this time only so i could see what he would do and i would have fodder for discussion here to talk about the best way to handle this in the future. i never asked or thought "is this ok". i know it is not, if i did not want to create a discussion and learn, i would have handled early, got the bird, and we would have nothing to discuss. i wanted to discuss a real scenario, so i created one. i wanted to discuss whether others here would handle early, recall and resend, rerun the same mark and when, maybe even fire another bumper mid-way, all this is good input.

give me an hour or so and i will post todays results.....

Like I said, you condoned all the wrong behaviours

 

[david gibson]

David, for the first time you have me confused so I will tread lightly and hope you dont take this the wrong way since I consider us friends

Are you looking for validation on the way you train or with your methods ? because I read input from two guys with loads of experience ( Howard and Greg M) and honest input and its almost like you want to debate them on their advice....IMHO you are back in a testing mode with your dog and looking at a piece of ground and asking what can I throw to test him today...instead of what does my dog need to learn or is weak at and can I teach him that concept on this piece of ground...

If i am wrong I apologize, because I sure do like your pictures and diagrams and would like to try some of those retrieves some day with you and your dog

the answer is yes and no. where did i ask for validation for my methods?? i want input, but sometimes i dont think i communicate as well as i should what that input is, as well as sometimes some people dont read everything thoroughly before offering input. in my original post, the original question was:

"so to tighten this up would you come back in 2-3 weeks and run it again as a 2-step pattern blind, starting from the middle strip of land for step one then backing up to the original line, do the same above as 2 marks, or do what i did today and start handling about midway through the first water?"

i did NOT want to be critiqued on letting my dog do what he did. i knew it was wrong and stated that i typically never let my dog beach early.. BUT, i wanted him to do what he wanted to do so i (and RTF) could analyze and maybe figure out why he did it and the BEST way to correct it. if i corrected it, we would have nothing to discus here, so whats the point? if i allowed bad things like this consistently when training i wouldnt have a dog at this level at this age. what frustrates me sometimes (and many others) - is it is impossible to convey every aspect in a post. thats why no one else does what i do here with analytical posts like this, i get tons of PMs from people thanking me for laying my cajones on the anvil and want me to post more stuff like this (re the blind analaysis series), and i have found i can filter through the din and find the path that fits best. its amazing how many lurkers read this and try to learn from all off your's input. just like in college when everyone is afraid to ask a question and finally someone else does.

i tried communicate that if i was on my own and never heard of RTF i would have handled early - exactly where depends on the level the dog is at at the time. we can all agree there are a number of ways to correct this issue - handle early, recall and resend, burn upon beaching on the wrong beach head and handle, back up and teach smaller segments, etc etc. some people know what this dog has experience in in the past, others dont, and their advice will differ significantly. this is something else that has to be filtered, but if not explained by me then i get accused of ignoring someones advice. and if i do explain, i get accused of being defensive. no win for me! again, this is why no one else lays their stuff on the line. its a double edged sword for sure. get 3 peoples advice, take one's, and the other two accuse me of being a jerk and not heeding an experts advice.

so to show what a slow learner and glutton for punishment i am, here is what we did today:

it was argued that the dog never really marked the fall, and based on the path he took that has some validity. so you cant argue that the dog knows exactly where to go - so repeating today should not be a "gimme".

you can see the chairs. i first sit/stayed the dog and walked to "o" and tossed a mark to "x". then remote release - the result is a successful short retrieve teaching the slope and water angle and resulting line. walked back to line after second water entry so he could return on the same path - getting wet.


then backed up another 30 feet and ran the full mark. the dog shows the path taken. i did nothing but stand there and take pictures, no handling. so i applied good RTF advice and we have success!

remember the zoom factor, i stepped it off and my step is really close to 3'. total is `185 yds.

next step: i will likely never run this mark again. in 2 weeks or so i will return and run marks to the far side where the yellow posts are to cover that last piece of water. if there is interest i will post that first attempt as well -- uncensored and fully exposed - what else would you expect from me? ;-)

peace out!

 

[david gibson]

Like I said, you condoned all the wrong behaviours

yes i did greg, as a frickin' test. not as a practice. do you not see the difference? if not, please kindly add me to your ignore list. i will be honored.

 

[greg magee]

yes i did greg, as a frickin' test. not as a practice. do you not see the difference? if not, please kindly add me to your ignore list. i will be honored.

If I did that there would be no one left to help you when your making mistakes. A little thicker skin than Theodore regards.

 

[david gibson]

If I did that there would be no one left to help you when your making mistakes. A little thicker skin than Theodore regards.

then by all means, try it. its not thicker skin on my part, its comprehension on yours. and what mistakes have i made greg? other than a purposeful set up for discussion fodder? please, find fault in how i took advice i got from the original post from other RTF'ers, applied it, and succeeded. where is the fault greg? methinks its because i listened to someone other than you. notice that those that gave advice that i listened to obviously dont have me on ignore, so whats your point?

Brian G suggested the chair method, i used it, and it worked. are you going to deny that? i will apply it here and there in the future as i see fit. so are you saying that if you put me on ignore Brian will never offer input again??? or are you implying that evetyone on RTF has me on ignore but you? please help me out here.

all in all, its a good thing. i learned a lot from some positive posts and filtered out the others. just because i used the chairs here doesnt mean i wont try something else later. this thread has a lot of good advice that i will archive with all the rest.....and at the end of the day i learn a lot, and thats all i want... ;-)

 

[Buzz]

An approach might be to post up a mark that you're planning to run, and discussing how a dog might respond to the factors involved, & how you might correct it.

 

[Stephen Whitley]

David,
Great pictures and editing! I am sure others like me appreciate it. But, I think the point you are missing from Greg is that you shouldn't purposely let your dog do what he wants to do just to see how you would handle any mistakes he makes the next time out...no matter what. Yeah, we all learned something but did your dog "suffer" because of it? The point is you're training, so be in control of the situation. And that's not me giving advice, that's me trying to understand what others are telling you. What I am getting out of this is that you ran this particular mark and allowed your dog to do what he wanted...the reason behind it doesn't matter. So in essence what you did was make your dog a guinea pig for others like myself to see what NOT to do when running our dog on a mark. I guess I could thank you for that, but it wouldn't be appropriate. It reminds me of the first day of basic training in the Army when guys are getting dogged by the drill sergeants. You very quickly learn what NOT to do!!!

Again, you have some great land and water to work on and do a great job with the pictures. Thank you!

 

[mjh345]

David, for the first time you have me confused so I will tread lightly and hope you dont take this the wrong way since I consider us friends

Are you looking for validation on the way you train or with your methods ? because I read input from two guys with loads of experience ( Howard and Greg M) and honest input and its almost like you want to debate them on their advice....IMHO you are back in a testing mode with your dog and looking at a piece of ground and asking what can I throw to test him today...instead of what does my dog need to learn or is weak at and can I teach him that concept on this piece of ground...

If i am wrong I apologize, because I sure do like your pictures and diagrams and would like to try some of those retrieves some day with you and your dog

That has kind of been his M.O. from the beginning.

 

[david gibson]

That has kind of been his M.O. from the beginning.

is that all you got? you dont have to read my threads you know. you have nothing but negative comments but always seem to follow me around, doint you?

 

[david gibson]

David,
Great pictures and editing! I am sure others like me appreciate it. But, I think the point you are missing from Greg is that you shouldn't purposely let your dog do what he wants to do just to see how you would handle any mistakes he makes the next time out...no matter what. Yeah, we all learned something but did your dog "suffer" because of it? The point is you're training, so be in control of the situation. And that's not me giving advice, that's me trying to understand what others are telling you. What I am getting out of this is that you ran this particular mark and allowed your dog to do what he wanted...the reason behind it doesn't matter. So in essence what you did was make your dog a guinea pig for others like myself to see what NOT to do when running our dog on a mark. I guess I could thank you for that, but it wouldn't be appropriate. It reminds me of the first day of basic training in the Army when guys are getting dogged by the drill sergeants. You very quickly learn what NOT to do!!!

Again, you have some great land and water to work on and do a great job with the pictures. Thank you!

i appreciate your input, but i still dont think this little "allowance" caused any issues with my dog, but apparently i am really off base since all i am getting is criticism. if i was a consistently stupid handler doing things like this all the time i dont think i would even be able to pass a jr test till 3 yrs of age. even if i was wrong to let him go, if someone disagrees with what i did just keep quiet. the topic of the post was how to handle a situation like this, not that i shouldnt have done it in the first place. i bet a lot more silent readers got more positive information out of this thread than the negative, if any, i did to my dog.

and in the end, did i or did i not learn something and did or did not my dog improve and benefit from it? really, where is the harm?

 

[greg magee]

i appreciate your input, but i still dont think this little "allowance" caused any issues with my dog, but apparently i am really off base since all i am getting is criticism. if i was a consistently stupid handler doing things like this all the time i dont think i would even be able to pass a jr test till 3 yrs of age. even if i was wrong to let him go, if someone disagrees with what i did just keep quiet. the topic of the post was how to handle a situation like this, not that i shouldnt have done it in the first place. i bet a lot more silent readers got more positive information out of this thread than the negative, if any, i did to my dog.

and in the end, did i or did i not learn something and did or did not my dog improve and benefit from it? really, where is the harm?

David, don't feel bad my friend. Allen Iverson couldn't tell the difference between coaching and criticism either. Your in good company

 

[david gibson]

David, for the first time you have me confused so I will tread lightly and hope you dont take this the wrong way since I consider us friends

Are you looking for validation on the way you train or with your methods ? because I read input from two guys with loads of experience ( Howard and Greg M) and honest input and its almost like you want to debate them on their advice....IMHO you are back in a testing mode with your dog and looking at a piece of ground and asking what can I throw to test him today...instead of what does my dog need to learn or is weak at and can I teach him that concept on this piece of ground...

If i am wrong I apologize, because I sure do like your pictures and diagrams and would like to try some of those retrieves some day with you and your dog

first, i am surprised this is the first time i have confused you, since i apparently confuse everyone else constantly.. ;-)
i am not attacking you, just attacking the situation, so yes, we are friends. BUT....

i guess i should just give up and quit trying to post practical training topics - i kinda thought that was what this place really should be about?? if i dont test my dog once in a while - as i did here, then how will i ever know what my dog needs to learn or is weak at??? just wait for a test and waste my money? and if i get 5 different pieces of advice, i cant take all 5 can i?? i have to decide which advice fits best, based on my infinite more knowledge of my dog and my abilities that no one else can know.

yes, howard and greg have teetons more knowledge than i, but they were not addressing my original question. i train by myself and have to test once in a while. if all i did was test would i have a dog at the level he is now???

Brian G, Leddyman, Kris Hunt, Joe Brakke, and Reed Creek all gave great positive input and advice. i thank all you guys for your input, you took the post for what it was meant to be.

but i am a bad guy - again - for not listening to people that didnt get it in the first place......grrrrrrrrrrrrrrr

again - shouldnt this be a place to discuss practical training issues and not cut down the trainers program or style????

 

[Stephen Whitley]

i appreciate your input, but i still dont think this little "allowance" caused any issues with my dog, but apparently i am really off base since all i am getting is criticism. if i was a consistently stupid handler doing things like this all the time i dont think i would even be able to pass a jr test till 3 yrs of age. even if i was wrong to let him go, if someone disagrees with what i did just keep quiet. the topic of the post was how to handle a situation like this, not that i shouldnt have done it in the first place. i bet a lot more silent readers got more positive information out of this thread than the negative, if any, i did to my dog.

and in the end, did i or did i not learn something and did or did not my dog improve and benefit from it? really, where is the harm?

Settle down, Killer. Just trying to help and I wasn't criticizing. I learned several things not just from this post but from the other ones you posted as well. Off the top of my head....make things black and white when training. And more recently, train and don't test...period. Never meant to imply that I think you are a stupid handler. If it makes you feel any better, my dogs will be better off by me reading your posts. Take that as you will. Next marking set up please...

 

[david gibson]

David, don't feel bad my friend. Allen Iverson couldn't tell the difference between coaching and criticism either. Your in good company

thank you greg. sincerely. i meant that. but please help me here - i'll repeat:

if i dont test my dog once in a while - as i did here, then how will i ever know what my dog needs to learn or is weak at???

what i did here was basically put myself in the position of the 3rd series of a master test. i am hanging ok, but i had one very quick and efficient handle on a particularly tough mark in the 1rst series. i know i cant handle here, if i do i am toast. so i let the dog go, and whatever he does i will definitely be training to correct during the next week of training. and what happens??? lo and behold the dog got the mark without establishing a hunt elsewhere - it was ugly, and some judges would say i barely made it, others would say it was just a wee bit too ugly to pass.

pass or fail, i know i have work to do. but what is the best and most efficient way to do that?

thats all this thread was intended for.

 

[Stephen Whitley]

if i dont test my dog once in a while - as i did here, then how will i ever know what my dog needs to learn or is weak at???

I put in a pretty cool play with my football team a couple of years ago and I bet we practiced it 100 times before ever running it in a game. The first time we ran it in a game my two guards pulled in opposite directions. If you know anything about football then you know what happened next and that situation is very funny to see....unless of course you're the coach.

My point is....you will know what your dog is weak at through your training. You will know if you worked on it thoroughly enough at a test. If you think that failing a test is a waste of money then that's just your way of looking at it I guess.

But please keep posting your marking set ups.