[Joe Brakke]

Speaking of hits on youtube, you can actually buy them if you want. Who would have thought?
http://www.tubetoolbox.com/default.aspx?RefId=goog4&gclid=CKK8_ejV2qICFQlX2godbCdtog

You can buy them from youtube too. http://www.tubeplays.com/purchase.html

As I originally thought, "its a marketing campiagn" to get Fred up the list for number of views and thus see his SMS advert to gain more attention to his business. I knew some how some way he was marketing SMS on "the RTF". This is proof:

FROM THE YOUTUBE LINK:
"Target your Audience"
Focus your YouTube Marketing on users who are directly within your target demographic (age, gender, location) and those who watch, comment and rate videos like your own. "


As far as Evan, he actually explains his content and has helped me over the years. I am willing to invest in his content/product, not Fred's. Fred and his francise owners will not discuss the inner works of his methods. That is a fact.

And Steve, name calling gets you in trouble with the moderator ..... guess since I follow and use Evans content, I am a quote "SHEEPLE". Back off with the generalized net thowing as you probally pissed of most of the RTF.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

Let me help clear that up a bit, Steve. I actually know how to train retrievers for fieldwork, and have a track record of doing so.

I post to help people with training questions by providing actual information..........

Evan

I gotta give this one to Evan folk. Even though I do not use his program I read the posts and he takes the time to sit down and go in depth with the folk needing help. There are times, few and far between that what I have read is all about the sell. And who hasn’t done that?
I have Maple Syrup!
But over all Evan is just totally helpful to both his folk and strange folk and even when he and I disagree it is a fun intelligent debate with big words and without name calling.;-)

and I like that

 

[fredhassen]

I don't tell anyone on discussion boards that I'm a new messiah, and the way Carr-method trainers are training compares to my ideas like a model T to a Ferrari. Etc.

.

Evan

Keep the record straight. I never told anyone on this board that I was the messiah and I never said anything about "Carr-method trainers are training compares ideas like a model T to a Ferrari. Etc.

Everyone of you claims to be a Carr/Lardy trainer but a centimeter of your dogs look like Lardy's. I would never group all of you in the same category cause you all have different abilities. Just like all of our trainers have different abilities. Some are better than others. That would be rediculous.

What I did say, and the discussion was on FF and you were advertising some videos, was that I'd make YOUR ff look like a model t next to a Ferrari. That's what I said. Anytime you want to have a seminar and take half the room, and I'll take half the room, I'll make your head spin. Your not that good with a collar dude, and everything you can do traditionally I can do. I'll even handcuff myself and won't even earpinch. I was talking about YOU. Don't go dragging everyone else into it. Now, if anyone on this board wants to take me up on a FF seminar, let them come crawling out of the woodwork. A 3 day event and I give you one day headstart to level the playing field. And I don't care how many titles or whatever you have. You are all welcome to that challenge.

I'll respond to whoever wants to take it on, with a 'Yes', and set it up.

 

[Mike Tome]

I gotta give this one to Evan folk. Even though I do not use his program I read the posts and he takes the time to sit down and go in depth with the folk needing help. There are times, few and far between that what I have read is all about the sell. And who hasn’t done that?
I have Maple Syrup!
But over all Evan is just totally helpful to both his folk and strange folk and even when he and I disagree it is a fun intelligent debate with big words and without name calling.;-)

and I like that

Ditto, ditto ditto.... therein lies the difference.

 

[fredhassen]

As I originally thought, "its a marketing campian" to get Fred up the list for number of views and thus see his SMS advert to gain more attention to his business. I knew some how some way he was marketing SMS on "the RTF". This is proof:

FROM THE YOUTUBE LINK:
"Target your Audience"
Focus your YouTube Marketing on users who are directly within your target demographic (age, gender, location) and those who watch, comment and rate videos like your own. "


Fred and his francise owners will not discuss the inner works of his methods. That is a fact.

First part........Yeah, go ahead and do that Joe, see where it gets you. That's the most groundbreaking, earth shattering marketing strategy that I've heard, and you are surely set to take over the world. Now all you need are some videos and see how that goes. I can't believe you.

I realize that you just got out of a sit down summit with all of our trainers in the room, and came up with your conclusion. You wouldn't know 2 of them if they knocked on your door. They all have their own interpretations of what we do, just like all you guys have your own interpretations of what Lardy does. Are you really that uninformed about human beings to think I am capable of creating a clone? Do you really think that I sit them down and say "Now, this is all top secret and don't say anything to anyone". I'm sorry, but you gotta go to. see ya.

 

[Mike Tome]

snip.... see ya.

You really aren't leaving, are you?

 

[troy schwab]

What I did say, and the discussion was on FF and you were advertising some videos, was that I'd make YOUR ff look like a model t next to a Ferrari. That's what I said. Anytime you want to have a seminar and take half the room, and I'll take half the room, I'll make your head spin. Your not that good with a collar dude, and everything you can do traditionally I can do. I'll even handcuff myself and won't even earpinch. I was talking about YOU. Don't go dragging everyone else into it. Now, if anyone on this board wants to take me up on a FF seminar, let them come crawling out of the woodwork. A 3 day event and I give you one day headstart to level the playing field. And I don't care how many titles or whatever you have. You are all welcome to that challenge.

I'll respond to whoever wants to take it on, with a 'Yes', and set it up.

WOW, seriously?????? Evan, please take this guy up on this....... and put him away for good. Can that be a contingency award??? LOL You can barely get a dog through a junior hunt test, and your calling out Evan......... I have seen it all........ Good lord!

 

[black0989]

Very entertaining to watch this whole thing unfold. Truth of the matter is Sir Fred, you will never get as far as Evan has and continues to get, because you are not a teacher. You're more like someone who does something, slings what little you do know to people who know even less and make money off of it. There is no way in h3ll that I would ever let you get anywhere near my dogs. Dont get me wrong, it has nothing to do with your "training" methods, but more along the lines of how you conduct yourself around people. Your "methods" may take off, but you won't last. You do not have what it takes to promote and develop a system such as others have done.


That's all I have to say about this, now I'm going to read up on my Smartfetch manual i just got in, and go do something useful.

Thanks

 

[troy schwab]

Very entertaining to watch this whole thing unfold. Truth of the matter is Sir Fred, you will never get as far as Evan has and continues to get, because you are not a teacher. You're more like someone who does something, slings what little you do know to people who know even less and make money off of it. There is no way in h3ll that I would ever let you get anywhere near my dogs. Dont get me wrong, it has nothing to do with your "training" methods, but more along the lines of how you conduct yourself around people. Your "methods" may take off, but you won't last. You do not have what it takes to promote and develop a system such as others have done.


That's all I have to say about this, now I'm going to read up on my Smartfetch manual i just got in, and go do something useful.

Thanks

Well said! IMO

 

[Sharon Potter]

Much as I'm tempted (and I was, for about half a second), I'm going to pass on the FF challenge. I much prefer taking my time and doing things slowly, using a collar to reinforce rather than teach. And I found your insults to Evan to be pretty arrogant, by the way. How would you know how good someone is with a collar? Have you stood next to him and watched? So far, you haven't shown us how good you are with it either...it's all smoke and mirrors. Just because what you do is different and relies on an e-collar doesn't make it automatically superior.

Your offer reminds me of the popular, famous natural horsemanship gurus who rush through colt starting in a few hours and get lots of oohs and ahhs from the uninitiated...they wow the crowd...but come Monday, somebody still has to actually train that colt. I have no doubt at all that you could have an audience in the palm of your hand...but that's not where the proof lies.

Ain't nobody gonna do any oohing and ahhing over watching me FF a dog...it's a slow process without any showboating involved, and I have no desire to rush it.

Carr/Lardy is a method...a plan, if you will, with a set of building blocks for each skill set that is a logical progression....just because someone is trying to follow that method doesn't mean they instantly turn into Rex Carr or Mike Lardy. It's the innate skill of the individual doing the training and handling that makes or breaks a method.

How about, instead of showboating, you simply explain your method for FF? How does it work, start to finish? How is the collar used? How does it work on a dog with zero desire to retrieve/no prey drive?

I'm dead serious....I'd love to know, and if you can show me a better way, I'm all over it.

I'm here, waiting....teach me.

 

[Brandoned]

I think all this SMS is pretty funny actually. I have a buddy that trains gun dogs that just had a dog brought to him that one of the so called SMS trainers in Douglasville GA did some "training" on. First of all if that's what SMS calls obedience, WOW! Second the dog was supposed to have been CC, again WOW! The dog works fine while retrieving, until you put a collar on her then she walks to the bumper/birds. It is very obvious even to an idiot like me that she has no clue what a collar is. Well let me correct that, all she knows is burn, burn, burn on the way out to pickup a mark! It seems the poor guy that owns this dog put a pretty good amount of money into her "training" and bought into the SMS program, but now has a different outlook on it. Oh well I guess this is another case of some "trainers" not knowing WTH they are doing and now someone has to make chicken salad out of chicken $hit!!

 

[BonMallari]

Evan would never stoop to this kind of "comparison"...Fred needs it because Evan has built up credibility and Fred wants part of that market...so what better way than to take on one of the leaders in the industry to try and get a foothold in that market...

I saw this same tactic when I worked for Hank Haney the golf instructor..people would challenge him all the time on his methods saying his methods were old school and wouldn't work....we used to call them golf gunslingers, because they were looking to make a name for themselves by going heads up against guys like Hank,Ledbetter,Harmon..of course none of the reputable teachers would give them the time of day or the stage to preach their rhetoric...and of course these gunslingers would hook a follower or three and the lost and curious would always stop and take a look because they were indeed looking for the magic swing key instead of putting in the time on the practice range...so many similarities in the dog training world

 

[Joe Brakke]

First part........That's the most groundbreaking, earth shattering marketing strategy that I've heard, and you are surely set to take over the world. Now all you need are some videos and see how that goes. I can't believe you.

You wouldn't know 2 of them if they knocked on your door. QUOTE]

Fred, relax, take a breath and ..... The youtube marketing text was right off their site, not my thoughts, it was placed there as factual data to support my thoughts on how you are marketing SMS. You post a link here on the RTF which has a boat load of traffic, out of curiosty folks link to the video and you get your ranking up to be brought to the top of Youtube where SMS is seen by thousands. That is it.

Fred, what you do not know or fail to see that there are some pretty intelligent folks here on the RTF that know BS when they see it. The biggest improvement you can make on this site is to go away. Good Bye!

Btw ... I have met two of "THEM" and they have the same appraoch you do, pay me $$$$ and I will tell. So its easy to conclude what is going on.

 

[Evan]

Anytime you want to have a seminar and take half the room, and I'll take half the room, I'll make your head spin. Your not that good with a collar dude, and everything you can do traditionally I can do. I'll even handcuff myself and won't even earpinch. I was talking about YOU...

I'll respond to whoever wants to take it on, with a 'Yes', and set it up.

Fred,

If it's true that "everything (I) can do traditionally (you) can do", why on earth don't you do it, and stop merely claiming you can? How do you summon such arrogance from a JH? Before I became aware of you, and how you do business, I might have accepted your inane challenge - just for fun. But you've shown yourself unworthy to appear with, and I don't need the type of association appearing with you is apt to produce.

You've shown yourself to be bad for the board, bad for the retreiver training business, and without sufficient integrity to recognize it, much less repair it. I want nothing more to do with you. Write whatever you care to, post more meaningless videos, make more totally unsupported claims of superiority...in other words, more of the same. I don't care enough to engage further. I'm only sorry to have indulged you to this extent.

Evan

 

[fredhassen]

I don't know how to break those quotes up like you did Sharon, so I'll do it this way without misquoting anything.

Sharon writes: Much as I'm tempted (and I was, for about half a second), I'm going to pass on the FF challenge. I much prefer taking my time and doing things slowly, using a collar to reinforce rather than teach.

Fred: If you change your mind on the challenge, it will still be available. I have no problem with that. I just don't think it's fair to make blanket comparison statements if you haven't seen it done by people that do it very successfully at both ends. Is it fair for me to pick one of you people that 'claims' they are doing what Lardy does, and maybe they've been doing for a week. It's not fair for me to say "I just saw the Lardy system and it's not very impressive." I'd go hang around Lardy for awhile, and then take everything everyone else says with a grain of salt. Who have you seen that teaches with a collar?

Sharon: And I found your insults to Evan to be pretty arrogant, by the way.

Fred: Obviously, you didn't have a problem with the jab at me, but that's o.k. I thought I'd just reclarify for the record. I'm not arrogant, when I put something up like that, I'm very confident about it.

Sharon: How would you know how good someone is with a collar?

Fred: I have eyes. I just know, I watch everything. He's a good trainer, but no way does he want to get in the same arena with me and FF. Ferrari, and model T. Very confident of that, and I'll back it up. Now, before you start twisting it all around into all kinds of advanced retriever stuff, and this and that. My comment was directed at FF. Not only will it be 5 times faster at least, but it will be more thorough also. I'll throw that in as well.

Sharon: Have you stood next to him and watched? So far, you haven't shown us how good you are with it either...it's all smoke and mirrors. Just because what you do is different and relies on an e-collar doesn't make it automatically superior.

Fred: I don't need to stand next to him, I know what I know, and I see what I see. If it's all smoke and mirrors, then you take me up on it. Your welcome to make a fool out of me. You know what you know also. You've already given away your hand in that you don't teach.......you don't have a prayer. Not arrogant, just confident. Smoke and mirrors? Boy am I gonna look stupid then, aren't I?

Sharon: Your offer reminds me of the popular, famous natural horsemanship gurus who rush through colt starting in a few hours and get lots of oohs and ahhs from the uninitiated...they wow the crowd...but come Monday, somebody still has to actually train that colt. I have no doubt at all that you could have an audience in the palm of your hand...but that's not where the proof lies.

Fred: Then what's the problem? You can take a kitty up and get 20 bucks from everyone, and I'll match it. Winner take all. I don't know what to say, cause you keep taking potshots, but not backing it up. I'm the one seeing smoke and mirrors. Oh, only one other prequisite to make it official. I know you have a lot of retriever titles, so you have to take the ribbons, and place them next to the dog during your process.
After all, you can't know anything unless you have a bunch of retriever titles, so we'll have something to look back on. Who knows, the dog may look at them and could just rush to the finish line. You will need all the outside forces you can muster.

Sharon: Ain't nobody gonna do any oohing and ahhing over watching me FF a dog...it's a slow process without any showboating involved, and I have no desire to rush it.

Fred: Great, take your time. I already know that. If there was a better way, you'd be doing it. You just don't know what you don't know. I'll do my three days, and we'll video. I'll go home and wait for you to do your day, week, month, or year, you video the segments. Take your time, cause it wouldn't be a 'fair' evaluation of your program if you rushed it, and it's not someone else's 'perception' of your program. It's your program with you doing it. That's fair. Time isn't important. If you take longer and it's a better job, that's all that counts. If the dog's screaming the whole time and you don't care, well then your just limited to doing it behind closed doors. I ain't tying him up, and I'm not earpinching, and I only need a chair. Obviously, I have to get him picking it up off the ground, and if I get the luxury that you guys have in throwing away all the crap and only taking the good stuff, I'll take him wayyyyyyyyyy farther and it will be a total landslide.

Sharon: Carr/Lardy is a method...a plan, if you will, with a set of building blocks for each skill set that is a logical progression....just because someone is trying to follow that method doesn't mean they instantly turn into Rex Carr or Mike Lardy. It's the innate skill of the individual doing the training and handling that makes or breaks a method.

Fred: Yep, sounds like you know it well. Should be a much easier time for you since you know it, and I'm not going up against someone that doesn't have a clue. I believe Evan knows it as well. You can bring him too, and we can take the better of the two of you against me. No problem, whatever you want to do. I'll have him collar conditioned as well, just to make it easier on you. O.K., so now I have to collar condition, FF, and you and Evan have a bunch of retriever ribbons at the dogs feet to make it more intimidating for me. I don't have a prayer.

Sharon: How about, instead of showboating, you simply explain your method for FF? How does it work, start to finish? How is the collar used? How does it work on a dog with zero desire to retrieve/no prey drive?

Fred: I will make you one promise. After you see this, you will completely understand why it couldn't be explained, and I will point that out a long the way. I promise. You don't know what you don't know.

Sharon: I'm dead serious....I'd love to know, and if you can show me a better way, I'm all over it.

Fred: I'll come out and show you, I need a good dog that knows nothing. I can do a ****ty dog as well, but you won't have any need for that.

Sharon: I'm here, waiting....teach me.

Fred: I need three days, you pay for airfare and room. You have to show me your retrieve as well, I already know what I'm gonna kind of see, but I need to make you accountable in fairness. You've talked an awful big game for this be all end all program that you've got going on over there, so I need to see. I want a comparison in person.[/quote]

 

[black0989]

FWIW Evan, We all (with the exception of Freds's butt buddy, Packleader) know this difference in you and the program you have developed and Fred and his "Slap-chop" type "methods" of his "program". You have a system that works, is understandeable and you stand behind your product willing to help and answer any and all questions that come about. Fred will just post up another video, and grab the bottle of lube while Packleader stands behind him.

You're system has helped countless people develop and learn how to have a trained retriever. Plain and simple, I go around telling people about your methods anytime that i can. Freds stuff will make for a good laugh while drinking beers after a nice day of training with my local HRC, thats all its worth in my eyes.

Thanks

 

[cakaiser]

I just think there are valid, tried and true reasons, why the training programs are structured as they are.
For many years, experienced retriever trainers, have modified these programs, tossing that which doesn't work, enhancing that which does. They will continue to do so.

Why? Because they understand the big picture is all important. And the big picture is constantly changing.
It's the art of putting all the pieces together that gets you a fully trained, field retriever.

I don't know how Fred's teaching with the collar might cause issues in the big picture. Nor does Fred.
And so, at least for me, that's the point.

 

[Sharon Potter]

I just think there are valid, tried and true reasons, why the training programs are structured as they are.
For many years, experienced retriever trainers, have modified these programs, tossing that which doesn't work, enhancing that which does. They will continue to do so.

Why? Because they understand the big picture is all important. And the big picture is constantly changing.
It's the art of putting all the pieces together that gets you a fully trained, field retriever.

I don't know how Fred's teaching with the collar might cause issues in the big picture. Nor does Fred.
And so, at least for me, that's the point.

What she said.

The more I think about it, the more I like Evan's reaction. Time to to stop beating a dead horse.

 

[FOM]

What she said.

The more I think about it, the more I like Evan's reaction. Time to to stop beating a dead horse.

Yes guys and gals, it is WAY past time. I know Chris has asked us to let RTF free wheel but I'm having a hard time not yanking this thread.

I yanked the poll and I'm on the verge of yanking this one. These types of threads are unproductive and do not add anything to RTF.

Lainee

 

[fredhassen]

WOW, seriously?????? Evan, please take this guy up on this....... and put him away for good. Can that be a contingency award??? LOL You can barely get a dog through a junior hunt test, and your calling out Evan......... I have seen it all........ Good lord!

Now THAT is the first intelligent statement I've heard in a long time. Yep.