[john fallon]

Health guarentee

Breeders.. What should the remedy be if a pup you sold is diagnosed later(at about 9 months) with elbow dysplasia ?

john

 

[T-bone]

I am not a breeder but we did purchase a pup that had severe bilateral elbow dysplasia at 8 months.

We did our research and bought our pup (Maverick) from a reputable breeder with all health guarantees. Mav had an occasional limp and I actually took him to the vet at 4 months because we thought he'd whacked himself or something. At that time the vet said to watch it. By 8 months he was limping severely. We took x-rays and they confirmed bilateral elbow dysplasia. We were referred to an orthopedist in another city. We went to see the ortho guy and he said that we could do arthroscopic surgery to help the situation but couldn't correct it. His post surgical prognosis was poor. He also said that Mav wouldn't be able to retrieve and swim from that point on. Quite frankly I couldn't see the point in doing the surgery because that was what he loved to do crippled or not. We were told we'd be euthanizing him by the time he was 2 yrs. Our decision was to deal with that when we had to as it seemed crueler to let him have the surgery and then restrict his activity for the rest of his life. His elbow dysplasia would not be the only orthopedic problem he'd develop. When Mav was 4 yrs old he had a subluxing patella repair and recovered well. His elbows continued to deteriorate and calcify. They were huge! He looked like a rabbit running because he had to rely on his back end so much. Mav had a warrior's heart and was finally put to rest when he was 9 yrs old due to cancer not his elbow dysplasia.

We let the breeder know what was happening from the get go. They asked for copies of the x-rays which we sent to them. They offered us another pup. Both parents had OFA good elbows but they did not breed that pairing again. It was through no fault of theirs that Maverick had the issues they did. Just like humans who sometimes have a child with a deformity/illness - it can just happen.

While I wish Maverick wouldn't have had to live his life with bad elbows anyone who knew him could see that he was as happy as and I wouldn't trade the years with him for anything. He came to us for a reason!

 

[john fallon]

I am not a breeder but we did purchase a pup that had severe bilateral elbow dysplasia at 8 months.

We did our research and bought our pup (Maverick) from a reputable breeder with all health guarantees. Mav had an occasional limp and I actually took him to the vet at 4 months because we thought he'd whacked himself or something. At that time the vet said to watch it. By 8 months he was limping severely. We took x-rays and they confirmed bilateral elbow dysplasia. We were referred to an orthopedist in another city. We went to see the ortho guy and he said that we could do arthroscopic surgery to help the situation but couldn't correct it. His post surgical prognosis was poor. He also said that Mav wouldn't be able to retrieve and swim from that point on. Quite frankly I couldn't see the point in doing the surgery because that was what he loved to do crippled or not. We were told we'd be euthanizing him by the time he was 2 yrs. Our decision was to deal with that when we had to as it seemed crueler to let him have the surgery and then restrict his activity for the rest of his life. His elbow dysplasia would not be the only orthopedic problem he'd develop. When Mav was 4 yrs old he had a subluxing patella repair and recovered well. His elbows continued to deteriorate and calcify. They were huge! He looked like a rabbit running because he had to rely on his back end so much. Mav had a warrior's heart and was finally put to rest when he was 9 yrs old due to cancer not his elbow dysplasia.

We let the breeder know what was happening from the get go. They asked for copies of the x-rays which we sent to them. They offered us another pup. Both parents had OFA good elbows but they did not breed that pairing again. It was through no fault of theirs that Maverick had the issues they did. Just like humans who sometimes have a child with a deformity/illness - it can just happen.

While I wish Maverick wouldn't have had to live his life with bad elbows anyone who knew him could see that he was as happy as and I wouldn't trade the years with him for anything. He came to us for a reason!

The "other" Pup offer what were its terms ?

john

 

[T-bone]

They offered us a new pup (free of charge) from any future litter. They did request that we neuter Maverick (which we'd already done) but did not request that we euthanize him.

They are still breeding dogs and after we put Maverick down I called them to see if they had any litters which they didn't. If they had I would have taken a pup without any worries at all.

Ironically, we bought a very well bred pup that ended up only having one testicle drop ...

 

[Angie B]

mon

Breeders.. What should the remedy be if a pup you sold is diagnosed later(at about 9 months) with elbow dysplasia ?

john

Depends on the home but chances are I'd give a full refund. If they want me to take the puppy back I would, otherwise they would get a refund with a spay certificate from the vet.

9 months is pretty young for ED

Angie

 

[T-bone]

We didn't ask for a refund but I have no doubts that they would have given it if we'd asked.

I know that some purchase pups for breeding programs/tests/trials and couldn't keep a pup with elbow dysplasia. Definitely understand that.

 

[EdA]

9 months is pretty young for ED

not really, elbow dysplasia is a general term which encompasses one of the following abnormalities

Ununited aconeal process
ununited medial coronoid process
osteochondrosis of the elbow (OCD)
elbow incongruency

of the 4 the first 3 are almost always seen in dogs less than 1 year old and sometimes less than 6 months old

 

[Guest]

We didn't ask for a refund but I have no doubts that they would have given it if we'd asked.

I know that some purchase pups for breeding programs/tests/trials and couldn't keep a pup with elbow dysplasia. Definitely understand that.

This is the attitude that breeders so much appreciate and most will bend over backwards to make things right with someone like you (regardless of what the contract says). Thank you!

And then you have the other scenarios...some of you may remember a pup of ours jumped off the owner's tailgate when she was 4 months old. When she was about a year old, it was discovered that she had been walking around on a broken leg for all that time.

OFA elbow prelims showed signs of dysplasia and the owner thought he was due a refund. Ummm...

 

[john fallon]

This is the attitude that breeders so much appreciate and most will bend over backwards to make things right with someone like you (regardless of what the contract says). Thank you!

And then you have the other scenarios...some of you may remember a pup of ours jumped off the owner's tailgate when she was 4 months old. When she was about a year old, it was discovered that she had been walking around on a broken leg for all that time.

OFA elbow prelims showed signs of dysplasia and the owner thought he was due a refund. Ummm...

Ordinarily what are your terms as they address the replacement of a pup for health reasons ? Is it unusual to do as Angie B does ,offer a full refund with a vet spay/neuter certificate ?

john

 

[Angie B]

This is the attitude that breeders so much appreciate and most will bend over backwards to make things right with someone like you (regardless of what the contract says). Thank you!

And then you have the other scenarios...some of you may remember a pup of ours jumped off the owner's tailgate when she was 4 months old. When she was about a year old, it was discovered that she had been walking around on a broken leg for all that time.

OFA elbow prelims showed signs of dysplasia and the owner thought he was due a refund. Ummm...

I think every case depends on the situation.

Angie

 

[WingsAtDawn]

I ran into a similar issue about 10 years ago - puppy I purchased ended up with health problems - I notified the breeder - they asked for medical verification that the pup did in fact have the problem - once that was verified they offered the following(all my choice)

1. Complete purchase price refund or pick from another litter
2. They would take the dog back or if I wanted to keep the dog - I needed to provide proof it was spayed.

So.....We elected a full refund, we elected to keep the dog and spay

All worked out as well as it could. Breeder did a excellent job of working with us - no problems at all

 

[Angie B]

not really, elbow dysplasia is a general term which encompasses one of the following abnormalities

Ununited aconeal process
ununited medial coronoid process
osteochondrosis of the elbow (OCD)
elbow incongruency

of the 4 the first 3 are almost always seen in dogs less than 1 year old and sometimes less than 6 months old

You know better then I! Thank you....

Angie

 

[EdA]

You know better then I! Thank you....

Angie

smaller joints are typically less forgiving of joint inflammation so the growth related problems tend to produce lameness and radiographic evidence of DJD very early

sometimes (particularly with joint incongruency) the DJD may not be evident until later in life and the coronoid process can fracture after it has fused so those obviously tend to appear later in life too

 

[Montview]

ED is a tricky one since an injury can also induce ED to develop. Is it severe enough to warrant surgery or long-term treatment? One of the pups I purchased from out-of-state ended up w/ FCP's that required surgery by the age of 6 months... The only agreement I had with the breeder required me sending her back to them and getting a replacement puppy. By 6 months of age there was no way I was sending her back, so she had elbow surgery and was spayed all on my dime.

Thankfully, the other dog I have at home had normal/excellent OFA prelims and normal/good finals so I didn't have to worry about it. My agreement with that breeder was that he was sold to me on full reg and as sole owner and if an issue had come up, it was my choice (and responsibility) whether to keep or rehome him.

 

[Guest]

Ordinarily what are your terms as they address the replacement of a pup for health reasons ? Is it unusual to do as Angie B does ,offer a full refund with a vet spay/neuter certificate ?

john

If I remember correctly, Angie doesn't guarantee health "clearances." I don't either and folks sign an agreement acknowledging that before they send a deposit.

That being said, as she states, it really depends on the situation. I have given full refunds for things not covered in my contract and re-homed the dogs if that's what the owner requests. At times this has required covering shipping the dog back to me on my dime.

I can't answer your inquiry as to whether it is unusual to offer a refund with a vet spay/neuter certificate. That depends on each breeder.

 

[Juli H]

If I remember correctly, Angie doesn't guarantee health "clearances." I don't either and folks sign an agreement acknowledging that before they send a deposit.

That being said, as she states, it really depends on the situation. I have given full refunds for things not covered in my contract and re-homed the dogs if that's what the owner requests. At times this has required covering shipping the dog back to me on my dime.

I can't answer your inquiry as to whether it is unusual to offer a refund with a vet spay/neuter certificate. That depends on each breeder.

I have not bred a litter, but I am pretty sure at some point in time, I will. When that happens, I will not have a written guarantee ..but I do plan on treating puppy buyers the way I would like to be treated..as has been mentioned, much depends on the situation... Have been on both sides of good and bad guarantees....

Juli

 

[windycanyon]

ED is a tricky one since an injury can also induce ED to develop.

Which is why so many won't "guarantee" elbows. I've watched my own dogs do stupid jumping stunts around here.... and just cringe. So far, so good.... but how do you know what is genetic (esp if you have depth of elbow clearances in the pedigree) vs what is injury? I was advised years ago to not guarantee elbows for that reason-- injury, stupidity....

That's the tough part of being a breeder. Look how many puppies are allowed to become OBESE in some homes-- I even added an obesity clause in my hip guarentee, but I'm wondering why I even offer anything after I've done my best to ensure soundness.

All you can do is study your pedigree, know how to read the vertical pedigree on OFA, keep your ears close to the ground on any outliers that may not be listed and failed.... and pray. And if you want a guarantee, get it in writing.

 

[Angie B]

That's the tough part of being a breeder. Look how many puppies are allowed to become OBESE in some homes-- I even added an obesity clause in my hip guarentee, but I'm wondering why I even offer anything after I've done my best to ensure soundness.

You can't cover stupid. No matter how many pages you write...

Angie

 

[gdluck]

John, I don't know why you ask this question but I will say that ED is a SOB of a problem. Mine has it bilateral, diagnosed at 7 months surgery at 9 months and a real PIA since. complicated joint AND they carry the majority of the weight. Add that to a high, high energy dog and it's really heartbreaking, that is if you get attached like i do.

From reading - 4-6 moths of age is fastest growth, bone plates are very soft and succeptable to injury. Don't let the dogs jump from truck , ever, hell my knees hurt when i jump outa the bed and i'm only 40. just not worth the chance.

I should add breeder was great - gave me purchase price back, and worked out a deal that a verbal promise that i not breed him and me sending the papers back to them without requiring neutering him. I didn't want to neuter because of the potential of added weight.

 

[frontier]

mon

9 months is pretty young for ED

Angie

My FC-AFC sired male out of a Open all age female that later became an FC-AFC was diagnosed with Grade III elbow dysplasia, DJD, everything that could be checked on the OFA form relative to elbows was marked at 8 months of age. I started hearing popping at about 4-5months upon rising; breeder returned my initial purchase price of the dog, returned dog to breeder; however I already had several months of pro training in the dog...but he was an expensive pup so the full refund did recoup a small part of training expense already invested

My other FC-AFC sired male out of a Canadian Open all-age female that later CFC-CAFC titled showed no signs, OFA excellent, and Grade II elbow dyplasia when I took him in for his OFAs at 2 years; sold as hunting dog with full disclosure

I have had several over the years rated at Grade I and Grade II, still removed them from my breeding program

I've actually had more elbow issues the last few years than hip issues in pups/dogs purchased

I avoid all jumping at young age and all the things I've been told to avoid in pups raised....kept at working weight etc.