[Kelly Greenwood]

John you might check the state laws in the state the puppy was bought. Some of the states have laws that require reinbursement of genetic or medical problems the puppy had a the time of sale up to the cost of the puppy. Some states only have a refund policy, some have a refund or exchange law, and some don't cover it. Some states these only apply to breeders that produce a certain number of pups a year. Knowing what the law is before you contact the breeder can give you a bit of added leverage.
The laws typically over ride contracts that don't follow the law.

 

[Bait]

So try this instead- pour 1 part Patron Anejo, one part Don Julio Citron (don't know how to make the little snake thingy) (you can substiture Gran Mariner in a pinch) and one part fresh squeezed lime in to a tall shaker. Add just enough ice to make it rattle some - shake gently and pour into a glass with a lightly salted rim.

Rinse and repeat as necessary.

Happy Hour regards

Bubba

NOW you're talkin'! That there, my friend, is about a perfect recipe! Just hold the salt, dude. I'm drinkin' healthy.
Don't need the snake thingy either. Know what you're talkin' about. You're talkin' my language. And, the splash of Gran Marnier adds a nice little flavor to it.
Here's to Bubba's taste in tequila,......CHEERS!
Bait

 

[Kelly Greenwood]

California requires that three options are given to the buyer of a dog that is sick within 15 days or is found to have a congenital disease within 1 year.
(1) The original buyer can return the pup and and be reimbursed for both the pup and sale tax Plus up to the cost of the pup in medical diagnoses and care.
(2) Keep the pup and recieve up to 150% of the cost of the pup in medical care for the condition.
(3) Exchange pup for one of equal value if one is available (buyer picks from available pups)

Buyer has to have a vet fill out a letter with alot of info on condition etc..

 

[windycanyon]

John, I still didn't get your answer on elbow clearances. Were BOTH parents certified Normal for Elbows by OFA? Were the grandparents? If not, was there deception involved in the purchase? Was there no way for the buyer to look at the OFA database and verify clearances?

It just sounds to me like someone is passing blame possibly w/ little or no basis. No one forces anyone to buy a particular puppy from a particular litter. The choice in the end is that of the buyer. Walk if you aren't comfortable. This is a choice that affects you for 12+ years, hopefully.

I have an idea. :idea: Let's wait until John breeds his first 10 litters or so (I'm assuming from the dialog he's never bred a litter) and revisit this topic then. Somehow I bet his perspective will change after he sees a few kids drop the puppy from 2-4' up, etc.. See how much you're willing to cover then. Especially since there is "so much" profit involved in a litter of puppies....

 

[Angie B]

You're asking the wrong person. I don't offer replacement pups and never have.

I did suggest that out of the goodness of your heart, as you would expect all breeders to do, that you take care of the pup they no longer want to provide for (disposable society) and find your friends a pup from another litter which, of course, meet your criteria. Notice the shift of responsibility onto your friends and not the breeder.

No fair changing the rules as you play the game. Period.

Winner, winner chicken dinner.....

John your fishing for the answer you want to hear and it doesn't exsist. Heck,,,, I'm still not sure what you're asking???

Angie

 

[YardleyLabs]

Maryland seems to be one of the states that does not have a puppy lemon law. In Delaware, by contrast, your friends would be protected since state law mandates that genetic defects discovered within two years be covered up to a specified percentage of the purchase price (Sellers breeding less than 3 litters per year are exempted). In most other states, it is much shorter (PA is 30 days). The Delaware law is so broad that I'm not sure how anyone could actually live with it without significantly increasing puppy prices since it makes the seller responsible for the costs of treating any problem that might be traced to genetic inheritance. Given the number of problems that are almost impossible to prevent though sound breeding practices, this simply makes the breeder an alternative source of health insurance for puppies.

 

[john fallon]

John, I still didn't get your answer on elbow clearances. Were BOTH parents certified Normal for Elbows by OFA? Were the grandparents? If not, was there deception involved in the purchase? Was there no way for the buyer to look at the OFA database and verify clearances?

It just sounds to me like someone is passing blame possibly w/ little or no basis. No one forces anyone to buy a particular puppy from a particular litter. The choice in the end is that of the buyer. Walk if you aren't comfortable. This is a choice that affects you for 12+ years, hopefully.

I have an idea. :idea: Let's wait until John breeds his first 10 litters or so (I'm assuming from the dialog he's never bred a litter) and revisit this topic then. Somehow I bet his perspective will change after he sees a few kids drop the puppy from 2-4' up, etc.. See how much you're willing to cover then. Especially since there is "so much" profit involved in a litter of puppies....

Mindsets like the one you just articulated are the reason for the existance of puppy lemon laws.

john

 

[Pheasanttomeetyou]

For the sake of this conversation lets assume the breeder is just a hobby breeder,......the pup was not injured, and it does in fact have bilateral ED even though the sire and dam are at least OFA good,

Is a refund with a spay/neuter certificate an unreasonable request/expectation by the buyer ?

john

John,

Given that elbows were, in fact, X-rayed and cleared for both Dam & Stud does show the breeder has acted responsibly and reasonably in this particular breeding.

I think that the existence of a written contract is a necessary part of any answer to your questions. If there is no contract, then your friends have no legal recourse (let's assume that the state where they bought the pup has no lemon laws).

Did the breeder make some sort of verbal statement or suggestion to your friends that they would be "taken care of" if the pup's joints be found unsound? If that happened, then your friends can reasonably expect some sort of refund. But lacking a written contract or witness, they probably have no legal recourse.

Now, your posts seem to suggest that there is no legal contract or sales agreement which addresses Elbow dysplasia. Nor has the breeder given any verbal assurances prior to the purchase of that pup. Am I correct?

You seem to suggest that a refund or new puppy is still in order because the breeder should "do the right thing" by that owner.

I think that if that puppy was bought for the sole purpose of running hunt tests or field trials, and Elbow dysplasia (which is serious) will compromise his training and ability to perform -- nullifying the purpose of that purchase, then a refund of some sort should be considered.

But ... many breeders disagree. They think that you pay for the quality of that breeding, including health clearances (soundness) and titles (achievements) of the Sire and Dam and other dogs in the pedigree. Then you take your chances that things will turn out OK with the pup.

There is merit to both sides of this argument.

 

[Sharon Potter]

Mindsets like the one you just articulated are the reason for the existance of puppy lemon laws.

john

John, I disagree completely with that statement.

The puppy lemon laws exist because of : Puppy mills and backyard breeders that don't do any sort of health clearances or that breed indiscriminately regardless of OFA certifications; and people who don't do their due diligence before purchasing.

 

[john fallon]

John, I disagree completely with that statement.

The puppy lemon laws exist because of : Puppy mills and backyard breeders that don't do any sort of health clearances; and people who don't do their due diligence before purchasing.

When one purchases a pup that has a congenital health problem and the breeder will not do anything about it, does it really matter who you bought it from........ back yard breeder or one of you all the net result is the same.

john

 

[windycanyon]

Mindsets like the one you just articulated are the reason for the existance of puppy lemon laws.

john

John,

Let me tell you something that perhaps will help you/your friends w/ future puppy shopping. Ask the breeder if they intend to keep a puppy to run on personally from the litter. I don't breed to ANY dog without that intent. So far, I've not had any ortho failures or serious health issues here in YEARS, ever since I've had several generations deep in clearances. Get the picture?

I'm not saying *hit doesn't happen with genetics, but guess what???? I'm pretty conservative when it comes to doing a breeding because they are expensive and time consuming (and did I mention expensive) and I don't WANT problems to deal with down the road.

And, need I mention, I take great offense by your statement? You have NO idea.... Breeders are NOT God.

Good luck to your friend, and I hope that the breeder will offer something in return, but if it's not in writing, it's a pretty slippery slope to climb. Anne

 

[windycanyon]

When one purchases a pup that has a congenital health problem and the breeder will not do anything about it, does it really matter who you bought it from........ back yard breeder or one of you all the net result is the same.

john

Just to enlighten you: Congenital means it was born with it, but it wasn't "genetic".

All dogs are supposedly born w/ normal hips and elbows, so this doesn't fit your bill. If it did, we could all just xray our babies and declare them sound. Darn if it was so easy!

 

[john fallon]

Just to enlighten you: Congenital means it was born with it, but it wasn't "genetic".

All dogs are supposedly born w/ normal hips and elbows, so this doesn't fit your bill. If it did, we could all just xray our babies and declare them sound. Darn if it was so easy!

Really ????

•Congenital disorder involves defects in or damage to a developing fetus. It may be the result of genetic abnormalities, the intrauterine (uterus) environment, errors of morphogenesis, or a chromosomal abnormality. ...

John

 

[Sharon Potter]

When one purchases a pup that has a congenital health problem and the breeder will not do anything about it, does it really matter who you bought it from........ back yard breeder or one of you all the net result is the same.

john

I disagree with that also. It does matter who you buy from, because if you want a guarantee, you need to look for a pup that comes with one. If you don't shop for a guarantee, then you can't complain later on. And if a guarantee is important to you, make sure it's in writing and spells everything out clearly. While there is no way to know for certain if a puppy will end up with bad elbows, if both parents have OFA normal certifications, it stacks the odds in your favor for elbows on the pup being normal.

At least breeders who do health screenings and get appropriate clearances are trying to prevent pups from having these issues. Puppy mills, etc. just want to crank out puppies, and could care less what happens to them later as long as they get their $$.

 

[Guest]

•Congenital disorder involves defects in or damage to a developing fetus. It may be the result of genetic abnormalities, the intrauterine (uterus) environment, errors of morphogenesis, or a chromosomal abnormality. ...

John

Knock it off, John. You are getting really out of hand on this one. It is stretching it, even for you.

 

[john fallon]

Knock it off, John. You are getting really out of hand on this one. It is stretching it, even for you.

M-
What are you trying to convey by enlarging "may be" in the emboldened portion of my post ????

john

 

[Guest]

M-
What are you trying to convey by enlarging "may" in the emboldened portion of my post ????

john

Don't be stupid. I'm done with this thread. I have something to celebrate over in the Events section.

A three year old Golden male of ours just WON the second Open he has ever run. His owner never questioned my contract.

Good luck with your witch hunt.

 

[john fallon]

I'm done with this thread..

I would hope so, you've posted on it 14 times

john

 

[john fallon]

Well.. The pup had its surgery yesterday, $3400 and still no word from the breeder...


john

 

[john fallon]

As frustrating as it is, good for them for going through with treatment regardless and I hope their pup makes a full recovery. Not good that the breeder didn't respond even if they don't have a contract or are not offering anything, that's really a shame. But I know of a vet/breeder who has produced dysplastic elbows and has made zero response to the puppy buyer and continues to breed the same dogs involved. At this stage, even a refund of the pup price, unless they bought a really expensive pup, would be small solace to the wallet, I imagine it is the total lack of response that is as bad as anything, or it would be to me anyway.

One thing I do emphasize to my pup homes, and put throughout the puppy info, is to get vet insurance asap, because even with a "guarantee", there simply is no guarantee that a pup won't develop something, or get hurt, etc. and a refund of a pup price isn't going to go very far in vet bills, in general.

I spoke to my friend today and he said the contract does guarentee agsinst
"Dysplasia" with nether of the limiting words hip or elbow being used.

They owned both the sire and the dam , there were 13 pups in the litter, all were sold @ $950 ea.......

john