[Juli H]

Why doesn't the AKC just do similar to HRC and NAHRA and give a MHX title to a dog that has accumulated 20 master passes....
Just don't see the need for a MNH (AKC) title...two different entities and even if they share a room, (MHO is) they should continue to sleep in separate beds.

Juli

 

[Pheasanttomeetyou]

Why doesn't the AKC just do similar to HRC and NAHRA and give a MHX title to a dog that has accumulated 20 master passes....
Just don't see the need for a MNH (AKC) title...two different entities and even if they share a room, (MHO is) they should continue to sleep in separate beds.

Juli

I agree 1000 per cent!

And isn't it interesting that this info has been announced 10 days before the close of entries. HOW DO YOU SPELL MANIPULATE?

This situation is not about the dogs. It is about m-o-n-e-y and only money. Money to the AKC for a $30 title, plus increased entries at weekly hunt tests and money to the MNRC - which already has so much money that they need to invest in CDs. Oh, and money to the PROs.

I have been posting on this forum - for several years - that it is bad for the sport ... and just plain wrong ... to base an AKC MHX title on an annual event like the Master National. NAHRA has, in fact, led the way with its GMHR and 1000 point title. You should look at the work of the dog over it's lifetime. Not a annual test that is time consuming, expensive to enter and travel to. Nobody should be forced to spend their valuable vacation time on this Master National test to obtain an advanced title.

OK, via NAHRA, you can get 2 legs towards a MHX title by qualifying at the MN and one leg towards a MHX title at a weekend HT. But the MHX should not be dependent on just the yearly MHN!

Who will pass this week long test? It is kind of a lottery: the judges decide ahead of time on how many handles they will allow and in what sequence (ie, you can't have more than 4 handles over 6 days, or you can't have more than 1 handle in 2 consecutive series). This sort of info is kept secret from the handlers until the ribbon ceremony. Sometimes the judges decide ahead of time, the maximum number of dogs they will pass (like the B stake judges at Bend, OR).

The advantage goes to those handlers who have multiple dogs. Somewhere around dog 4 or 5 those handlers figure out the traps in each series and begin to work the test. PROs make sure that potential clients understand this. Given the time and financial constraints these owners will be encouraged to put their dogs be handled by PROs during the week.

What this will do is put even more dogs on PRO trucks. (If you want a new title and don't have enough vacation time to train and participate in the MNR HT - use a PRO.)

So, the end result: A program which was designed for the Amateur Hunter-Owner-Handler and his/her dog will effectively be ...

 

[Sue Kiefer]

For a forum Name like "Pheasanttomeetyou" you sure are a negative cus against Pro's.
Who put a bee in the bonnet/shorts???
It still is a noncompetitive event where there still is no winner only running against a standard set up by the rulebook and enforced by your weekend judges.
I'm confused by the negativity.
Sue

 

[Pheasanttomeetyou]

MONEY TALKS, ESPECIALLY WHEN THE AKC IS LISTENING!

Process and Fees

The Master National Club will track the number of times a dog passes its national event. Once a year following the national event the Club will send the Performance Events Department a list of the dogs that have earned a MNH or higher title (on a form provided by the AKC). The Master
National Retriever Club will be charged a fee of $20 per title to have the titles placed on each dog’s record.

The owner of a dog that has earned a title may wish to receive an AKC title certificate. This is done by the owner submitting a form provided by the AKC along with a $30 fee to the Performance Events Department. An AKC Title Certificate will be created and mailed to the owner. The request
for a title certificate is totally up to the discretion of the owner.

Handling Titles Earned in the Past - The Master National Club may want to “catch up” by recording all titles earned in the past. The AKC will add all titles (the highest title earned) to each dog’s record for a fee of $20 per title. If the club decides to record titles earned in the past, owners may order title certificates.

We are all being manipulated. They think that HT people are really stupid.

We can do something about this: call or e-mail your AKC representative and ask them to vote no when this proposal comes before the AKC Board and planning committee.

Why you are at it, bring this up for a vote at your HT Club. The Club rep at the MNRC Delegates meeting this year can vote "NO" to this scheme. Do not forget: through the years, the MNRC Board was voted down on other stuff they tried to cram down our throats. This should not be allowed to pass!

 

[DarrinGreene]

given the rotation of the event accross the country, this is going to be one damned expensive title to get if you want one and to that end I think it really stinks

i think it is against the original intent of the hunt test program as it has been explained to me when I have to take two 3000 vacations just to be present at an event my dog MIGHT pass in order to get his title.

 

[Brad B]

Who will pass this week long test? It is kind of a lottery: the judges decide ahead of time on how many handles they will allow and in what sequence (ie, you can't have more than 4 handles over 6 days, or you can't have more than 1 handle in 2 consecutive series). This sort of info is kept secret from the handlers until the ribbon ceremony. Sometimes the judges decide ahead of time, the maximum number of dogs they will pass (like the B stake judges at Bend, OR).

The advantage goes to those handlers who have multiple dogs. Somewhere around dog 4 or 5 those handlers figure out the traps in each series and begin to work the test. PROs make sure that potential clients understand this. Given the time and financial constraints these owners will be encouraged to put their dogs be handled by PROs during the week.

What this will do is put even more dogs on PRO trucks. (If you want a new title and don't have enough vacation time to train and participate in the MNR HT - use a PRO.)

So, the end result: A program which was designed for the Amateur Hunter-Owner-Handler and his/her dog will effectively be ...

Where do you get that the judges have such a devious plot? Apparently it's still being kept a secret from me because I've never ever heard of any such thing. The rule book spells out how many handles you can have. I fyou have struggles to get a MH and are having to handle on marks all the time then maybe you should train harder or get a better marking dog.

And what "traps" are there in a test? No national caliber judge has to set dogs up to fail. They are chosen to judge the event based on thier ability to design a setup that allows the dogs to be evaluated on thier own merit. Many times a dog fails itself. Granted this isn't true at a weekend event when some pencil whipping has been known to occur for whatever reason, but I hardly believe that a MN panel of judges and the hosting club for that matter, would allow such a setup as you alledge. Either your dog can do the work or not! If you have made it as far as having reached the nationals and you still can't tell where the dogs might have trouble or what the key bird is, then maybe you should find a new game to play. It doesn't take multiple dogs to pass a MN, just some good sense about dog work and knowing the dog you're running.

Sour grapes and conspiracy theories run amuck once again.

 

[HarryWilliams]

I think PTMY is positively against it. I'm not sure that equates to negativity. HPW

 

[Pheasanttomeetyou]

Where do get that the judges have such a devious plot? Apparently it's still being kept a secret from me because I've never ever heard of any such thing. The rule book spells out how many handles you can have. I fyou have struggles to get a MH and are having to handle on marks all the time then maybe you should train harder or get a better marking dog.

And what "traps" are there in a test? No national caliber judge has to set dogs up to fail. They are chosen to judge the event based on thier ability to design a setup that allows the dogs to be evaluated on thier own merit. Many times a dog fails itself. Granted this isn't true at a weekend event when some pencil whipping has been known to occur for whatever reason, but I hardly believe that a MN panel of judges and the hosting club for that matter, would allow such a setup as you alledge. Either your dog can do the work or not! If you have made it as far as having reached the nationals and you still can't tell where the dogs might have trouble or what the key bird is, then maybe you should find a new game to play. It doesn't take multiple dogs to pass a MN, just some good sense about dog work and knowing the dog you're running.

Sour grapes and conspiracy theories run amuck once again.

Actually the rule book does not spell out how many handles you can have. And if you have attended the Master National you would have heard these sorts of decisions are made ahead of times, but not communicated to the handlers.

Regarding high caliber judges ... they are voted in each year and there is nothing sin the job description that states they have to be "high" caliber. We're talking politics.

BTW, I am pleased with this years judging panel.

Traps? All tests have traps or hazards. I'm not talking about unfairness, but test design. And if you are running lots of dogs, then you have a major advantage over the owner handler running just one or two dogs.

There is a lot of reasons to go to the Master Nationals. It's kind of a convention that the same faces attend each year to have fun and see others from across the country. It is something people want to enter to see how their dogs can do. It serves as a goal for those individuals who want a reason to continue to campaign their dogs after achieving a Master Hunter title.

But it should not be something you feel compelled to enter in order to get an advanced title on your dog! That sort of title should be earned at the weekend tests.

It should not serve as something that compels you to place your dog on a PRO truck!

 

[Pheasanttomeetyou]

For a forum Name like "Pheasanttomeetyou" you sure are a negative cus against Pro's.
Who put a bee in the bonnet/shorts???
It still is a noncompetitive event where there still is no winner only running against a standard set up by the rulebook and enforced by your weekend judges.
I'm confused by the negativity.
Sue

Sue, don't be confused -- listen to Darrin and other posters on this thread:

given the rotation of the event accross the country, this is going to be one damned expensive title to get if you want one and to that end I think it really stinks

I think it is against the original intent of the hunt test program as it has been explained to me when I have to take two 3000 vacations just to be present at an event my dog MIGHT pass in order to get his title.

I have nothing against PROs, but this should NOT be a PRO dominated event. The vast majority of dogs running in the Master National should be handled by their owners -- not the other way around. This event should encourage the amateur owner/handler to participate. That, after all was the original intent of the Master National ... and the AKC HT program. A title based on one, yearly test has the opposite effect.

As I said, we can and should do something about this: call or e-mail your AKC representative and ask them to vote "NO" when this proposal comes before the AKC Board and planning committee.

Why you are at it, bring this up for a vote at your HT Club. The Club rep at the MNRC Delegates meeting this year can vote "NO" to this scheme. Do not forget: through the years, the MNRC Board was voted down on other stuff they tried to cram down our throats. This should not be allowed to pass!

 

[Sue Kiefer]

Pro. handler vs. Amat. at a Master National event. Who cares?????????????
The Master National thing was made up because Master Hunters didn't know what to do after they've reached the Master level. As far as AKC. They didn't endoarse(Spelling)the whole idea at the beginning and may still don't. I have never entered a Master National and probably never will.I have better things to do for 2 weeks besides running against a rulebook standard to only finish will dozens of others for a plate and lots of money spent and time.
I think that if someone wants a challenge after finishing a Master title than run licensed trials. Don't run the same samey every weekend to collect more orange ribbons.What's the point?
If that's not your bag and you enjoy the AKC Hunt Test ...more power to ya.
Don't make the program more than it is.
The Pros.....well they're there what ya going to do???????????
Sue

 

[Pheasanttomeetyou]

Pro. handler vs. Amat. at a Master National event. Who cares?????????????

The Master National thing was made up because Master Hunters didn't know what to do after they've reached the Master level.

I agree completely.

The program came about to give owners a reason to continue hunt tests with their MH titled dog.

I think that if someone wants a challenge after finishing a Master title than run licensed trials. Don't run the same samey every weekend to collect more orange ribbons.What's the point?

I see your point: Field Trials are where "it" is at!

People wanting more of a challenge should definitely move up to Field Trials.

Those "others" (who don't have enough $$$ or good enough dogs ) can sample other venues like HRC or NAHRA. Go up to Canada! Once you receive your AKC Master Hunter title: move on to some fun stuff. It is pointless to collect more orange ribbons.

Don't make the program more than it is.

The program was and should continue to be a pleasant get together for hunt test enthusiasts interested in running their dogs over a week long event. Yes, the set-ups can be designed to challenge these dogs. They do, after all, have MH titles.

Unfortunately, the MN program has evolved into a monster because the MNRC Board attempts to make this event more than what it is - or can be. And this proposed title will not help anything. Either attach the title to weekend tests or drop it completely.

The Pros.....well they're there what ya going to do???????????
Sue

Yes, the PROS are already at the MN, but that's no reason to alter the event in such a way to dissuade amateur-owner-handler participation. It will be sad when over 75% of the dogs are being handled by PROS.

PROs -- they have a place. But this week should be for owner handlers. Let the PROS do the Field Trials thing!

Just say'in ;-)

 

[Monte09]

Pro. handler vs. Amat. at a Master National event. Who cares?????????????

I have never entered a Master National and probably never will.I have better things to do for 2 weeks besides running against a rulebook standard to only finish will dozens of others for a plate and lots of money spent and time.

I think that if someone wants a challenge after finishing a Master title than run licensed trials. Don't run the same samey every weekend to collect more orange ribbons.What's the point?

If that's not your bag and you enjoy the AKC Hunt Test ...more power to ya.
Don't make the program more than it is.
The Pros.....well they're there what ya going to do???????????
Sue

I dont understand this post. The proposed change doesnt impact you and those who do not go to the Master National. Why not allow those who wish to participate the opportunity have the MNH title listed on the pedigree. If you prefer to go to a trial after your dog earns his MH title this proposed change does not prevent you from doing so.

Steve

 

[Brad B]

Actually the rule book does not spell out how many handles you can have. And if you have attended the Master National you would have heard these sorts of decisions are made ahead of times, but not communicated to the handlers.

Regarding high caliber judges ... they are voted in each year and there is nothing sin the job description that states they have to be "high" caliber. We're talking politics.

BTW, I am pleased with this years judging panel.

Traps? All tests have traps or hazards. I'm not talking about unfairness, but test design. And if you are running lots of dogs, then you have a major advantage over the owner handler running just one or two dogs.

There is a lot of reasons to go to the Master Nationals. It's kind of a convention that the same faces attend each year to have fun and see others from across the country. It is something people want to enter to see how their dogs can do. It serves as a goal for those individuals who want a reason to continue to campaign their dogs after achieving a Master Hunter title.

But it should not be something you feel compelled to enter in order to get an advanced title on your dog! That sort of title should be earned at the weekend tests.

It should not serve as something that compels you to place your dog on a PRO truck!

Actually the rule book does spell it out. No more than half the marks. I guess if you can't count then you don't know how many that is. And I'll be the first to tell you that there are plenty of judges that don't know how many that is.

I have attended a MN and I never heard any such conspiracy on how many dogs they would allow to pass. Would you care to share how many or which MN you attended where this took place?

Nobody said they were "high" caliber judges. But they are there because member clubs have voted them to be there based on what they think of the tests they have seen them set up. Politics? Really, where is the campaign!?? I've never been pressured or pursuaded into voting for any of the judges I've voted for. Sometimes the ones I want to make it, sometimes not. Again, if your dog can do that level of work it really shouldn't matter what judges are there should it?

And no, not all or hardly any tests in my experience have "traps or hazards". There are key training elements that may be included in a test which a master level dog should have already been prepared to handle and a master level handler can recognize. I guess if you havn't done the prep work then it would seem like a "trap". I will conceded that running multiple dogs does have its advantages but I hardly see where it's the only way to succeed at a national level. Accurate assement of the setup and proper prepardness can always beat a truck full of half-a** trained dogs with P-poor handling.

Granted an individual may feel compelled to reach that title and would have to follow the national route of tests to get it. However, that does not necessarily entail that the person be "compelled to place your dog on a pro truck". By god if that's your goal then get your butt out there and train the dog you have and give it your best shot.

As far as how much money it costs...it's all relative. Why is that MNH or MNX or MNH IV, etc. title so important? Is it any more valuable than the SH title? How much might that cost someone? Is it too much? How much vacation time would a SH title take? It's all relative folks. The perceived 'value' of said titles is up to the person that earns it. A JH that took a person 2 years to get because of his work schedule or budget is just as 'valuable' as that MNH or whatever. It's just another set of letters on the name of a animal that you will most likely outlive and reflects in no way on how much time you've spent training that animal nor can it match the enjoyment that you've gained during that journey.

 

[Monte09]

given the rotation of the event accross the country, this is going to be one damned expensive title to get if you want one and to that end I think it really stinks

i think it is against the original intent of the hunt test program as it has been explained to me when I have to take two 3000 vacations just to be present at an event my dog MIGHT pass in order to get his title.

Darrin,

To make it more in line with the original intent they might be able to regionalize the test. They have already planned to have three flights at this years test why not locate each flight in a separate region to reduce the burden of the travel expenses. I would expect this to be a increased financial commitment by the MN Club but it could increase the participation.

Steve

 

[Pheasanttomeetyou]

I dont understand this post. The proposed change doesnt impact you and those who do not go to the Master National.

But the proposed change does impact those who do not go to the Master National. There a lots of people whose MH dogs qualify each year, but do not wish to participate at this yearly event; and would nevertheless like to get a more advanced title. Pinning a MHX title on this event alone is unfair to these people. As stated, if you qualify at the MN, you could get 2 legs towards the MHX title. Qualifying at a weekend HT will give you 1 leg towards a MHX title.

Why not allow those who wish to participate the opportunity have the MNH title listed on the pedigree.

If you prefer to go to a trial after your dog earns his MH title this proposed change does not prevent you from doing so.

The question you should be asking should be " why not allow those who wish to participate in weekly hunt test, but not go the the Master National (even though their dog has qualified) the opportunity to have an MHX title listed on his pedigree?

This proposal is wrongheaded! It is unfair to a vast majority of MH handlers. It will do further harm to the MH program.

 

[Pheasanttomeetyou]

I dont understand this post. The proposed change doesnt impact you and those who do not go to the Master National.

But the proposed change does impact those who do not go to the Master National. There a lots of people whose MH dogs qualify each year, but do not wish to participate at this yearly event; and would nevertheless like to get a more advanced title. Pinning a MHX title on this event alone is unfair to these people. As stated, if you qualify at the MN, you could get 2 legs towards the MHX title. Qualifying at a weekend HT will give you 1 leg towards a MHX title.

Why not allow those who wish to participate the opportunity have the MNH title listed on the pedigree.

The question you should be asking should be "why not allow those who wish to participate in weekly hunt test, but not go the the Master National (even though their dog has qualified) the opportunity to have an MHX title listed on his pedigree?

This proposal is wrongheaded! It is unfair to a vast majority of MH handlers. It will do further harm to the MH program.

As I said, we can and should do something about this: call or e-mail your AKC representative and ask them to vote "NO" when this proposal comes before the AKC Board and planning committee.

Why you are at it, bring this up for a vote at your HT Club. The Club rep at the MNRC Delegates meeting this year can vote "NO" to this scheme. Do not forget: through the years, the MNRC Board was voted down on other stuff they tried to cram down our throats. This should not be allowed to pass!

 

[Pheasanttomeetyou]

Getting a little hot under that collar of yours?

I guess if you can't count then you don't know how many that is. ....

.......Again, if your dog can do that level of work it really shouldn't matter what judges are there should it?

......I guess if you havn't done the prep work then it would seem like a "trap".

Before you continue on this path of making things personal ...

Honestly,

I know the knock that the internet has is that folks would write and behave towards others in a manner that they'd not dare in person.

Please, at least here on RTF, before you hit the "send" button, think about how you would feel if you were on the subject end, or the receiving end of the message.

Treat others as you would like to be treated....

please...

Thanks, Chris

Just say'in

 

[paul young]

Brad,

could you post the page and paragraph in the regs that states you can not handle on more than 1/3 the marks and still qualify, please?-Paul

 

[Lady Duck Hunter]

Ahhhh....Master National......always seem to get the blood boiling this time of year.

I know a lot of people want that MNH title to be offered and accepted by AKC. That has been requested for years. I don't happen to be one who believes it is all that important. Afterall the requirements are basically the same as for the weekend tests and the hope is that two complete weekend test requirements are met during the 8 day event. That happened for the first time in 2005 in Texas and I believe has happened each year since until this past year (2009) also in Texas when bad weather plagued the MN week.

Would AKC consider giving out advanced titles for MH dogs who have completed the same number of MH tests - in this case 24 passes (6 per year to qualify to run in the MN and 2 passes for each MN pass) in addition to the MH title requirements?

I have been involved with MN for several years, had a dog put a plate on the wall, had the same dog go out in the first series for leaving too early the next year. I have been envolved with hosting the event and worked hard all week to see to it that people who were visiting our State had a great time.

To me, it really isn't about the honor and glory as much as it is about the celebration of getting there and being with other like minded people.... Re-kindling friendships and sharing like experiences. Sure that orange ribbon and pewter plate has a special place in my home as does the photo of the little black dog that made it possible.

Did he need a MNH title to prove that he was special? No, not at all, that is why we didn't push to have him run again when that event was practically in our back yard and we were both committed to being there for the entire two weeks.

I think everyone who accomplishes any goal with their dog in our game is a winner. At some point, we just need to accept that it is about the quality of the time spent with those 4 legged friends that is important, not the number of letters behind their name.

Again, In my opinion The Master National Experience should be recognized as a celebration of a great year with your dog.... not a title that is to be sought after at all costs.

 

[SueLab]

"Again, In my opinion The Master National Experience should be recognized as a celebration of a great year with your dog.... not a title that is to be sought after at all costs."

You've got it right!

The most fun to me is not running the event but the week of training before the event with great people from all over the country. Our first year, we trained with Doug Shade's group thanks to a friend of ours who moved to Oregon. It was the highlight of that event. Such has been the case for each one that we have attended.