[22899]

ted said:

Quote:
Mike

I disagree with your first point. Emphatically.

I think flyers should never be used as a control bird - that is, a bird that must consistently fall in the same place.


I didnt mean contriol as you defined it above. More so as it testing steadyness. Flyers I have seen in the Senior level HT I have run have always been relativley close, and always the go bird.

So exciting for my older dog, that I was always MORE worried she would break,, and also so excited, it seems she didnt mark that well. (would have to work her way through old falls.) Often she would have extended hunts, causing issues then on the memory bird of the double. Especially if memory bird gunners retired.

Gooser

 

[22899]

Ted
On the tests set ups we ran yesterday!

First set up.

I dont know if you watched us run, but I moved WAY up!
The flyer then was closer for us, but far enough away I didnt think my dog would break. I ran all the marks as singles. She did well. (My opinion):razz:

The second set up. I ran as a triple with all guns visible. The flyer,, (Pidgeon) was REALLY close! I was SURE she would break!! (she didnt,,close though) She marked it well.

She needed help with the long gun though! I dont think she ever really saw it. She looked that way, at the shot, but didnt mark.

She marked the last bird down perfectly.

Your discussion with me of the handlers resposibilty at the line on that set up was interesting. I failed to follow your sugestions however, due to nerves,and I didnt step up on her for the memory marks. I should have asked for the first bird down gunner to move a bit for us.

It was a really fun day! I saw some INCREDIBLE dog work!!

Gooser

 

[Todd Caswell]

At the AKC test I ran on Saturday, there were zero live flyers in Senior on the water test. How did those ducks die?

Was the water test first? If so I would bet they were freshly thawerd birds from a previous test or trials live flyers. If you didn't get a flyer in the first series id'e be ticked. Never seen a AKC club gas birds

 

[Snicklefritz]

Most people that run tests and trials with flyers know it makes a huge difference with dogs with desire that are marginally trained. Lets face it, no flyers, and it is a lot easier. Dogs live for flyers, they know which stations have the flyers, and the excitement can wipe out memory. I wouldn't even want to run dogs without flyers. The use of flyers for a bird dog is essential for the preservation of the traits of the breed, and using them is what we are fighting to preserve, is what the anti's want to take away, or next it will be rubber ducks.

I agree with every point you've made. But, I question wether 'Junior' or 'Started' is a good place to make a distinction that can washout a really good dog that just hasn't had the training yet. 'Senior/Seasoned' and up, let'em roll. We could still determine the best of the breed by withholding judgement a bit.

And, by the way, in my original question I didn't question using flyers for Junior, just whether they should be used a bit differently for Junior or Senior.

Regards,

Chuck

 

[Chris Atkinson]

I agree with every point you've made. But, I question wether 'Junior' or 'Started' is a good place to make a distinction that can washout a really good dog that just hasn't had the training yet. 'Senior/Seasoned' and up, let'em roll. We could still determine the best of the breed by withholding judgement a bit.

And, by the way, in my original question I didn't question using flyers for Junior, just whether they should be used a bit differently for Junior or Senior.

Regards,

Chuck

Chuck, you wrote nothing in your initial post about "washing out" any dogs. You wrote four separate questions, as four separate paragraphs with little to no supporting text to help the audience understand the purpose of your questions.

I don't understand how the use, or lack thereof, of a flyer in a started or intermediate level hunt test has any impact whatsoever on determination of the "best of the breed". Hunt tests were designed as non-competitive venues for the regular Joe to enjoy his dog.

It has been written and stated in many venues and settings that the most difficult stake to set up and judge is "Intermediate", "Senior" or "Seasoned".... This is the case for the whole event. Flyers are but a part of the consideration.

Good judging requires good judgement.

Signing off and staying off this thread this time....

Chris

 

[ErinsEdge]

But, I question wether 'Junior' or 'Started' is a good place to make a distinction that can washout a really good dog that just hasn't had the training yet.

Why would you take a dog that hasn't seen enough flyers to a HT? I would never take a dog to be tested that wasn't ready, and ready means they have enough flyers shot for them. I wouldn't be taking a dog to run senior that wouldn't cast in the wind either. It's about preparation and training before testing. A dog that's barking and jumping around a cripple has not had enough birds IMHO, and it's the handlers fault, not the dogs' fault. This doesn't mean you wash the dog but the dog needs more work before taking it to a HT. Now I did have a young dog go to a JH (judged by Nancy Pals) where the first bird she saw in competition was a shot flyer on water. The flyer didn't bother her, but swimming past the 3 gunners did for some reason, but stuff happens at the first test with young dogs. I had them help her and I made her watch about 5 flyers until she was excited and she passed every test after that including picking up cripples. I also don't see what the difference would be between junior and senior flyers as long as the marks were not tight or the flyer too close which I also think is a waste of a flyer.

 

[moscowitz]

Chuck you seem to be having a hard time getting from junior to senior. This could have nothing to do with a flyer and more to do with your training and the gaps you might have in your foundation. The only real difference in junior to senior is a blind. And most senior tests the blind is pretty basic. Your dog is four years old so he is no longer a puppy. Senior should have been a very natural transition.

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

Unfair characterization of UKC and those who participate.

At the AKC test I ran on Saturday, there were zero live flyers in Senior on the water test. How did those ducks die? I heard somebody comment before the test that they had to go kill some more ducks. Did they shoot them out of the sky? I suspect they euthanized them with gas.

I'm a UKC guy, who BTW thorougly enjoyed AKC. And, I've also shot flyers at several AKC tests, and several UKC upland tests.

The reasons I've heard that UKC doesn't often use live flyers is for liablility reasons. Maybe so, maybe not, but UKC was created by and for hunters - the ones that shoot ducks out the sky - or at least they try

So, while AKC has its hunters also, characterizing UKC the way you have is unfair, I think inaccurate, and not helpful.

JMHO,

Snick

You can say it’s an unfair characterization of UKC if you like and insinuate that I don’t participate, but reality is I am one of the founding members of the only HRC club in Oregon and currently am the sitting president. For the record, its been one of the worst experiences I’ve ever had in a club. The prejudice against AKC is unlike anything I’ve ever seen and AKC FT politics are child’s play compared to the stuff I’ve put up with from “true HRC” folks. I’ve ran herding dogs FT’s, NSTRA, AKC, Hounds and just about every retriever type of event you can think of and never have I witnesses the BS of what I have gone through in this club. After donating property, equipment, free training, seminars, untold amount of cash, and god knows how much time I’ve not once heard a thank you, but rather been told that “pro’s” are the problem with this club. I didn’t even sign up to be president, the last one quit after running 8 board members out of the club. To top it all off, I’ve had guys that can’t get their dogs to sit and successfully retrieve a live or dead bird at 30 yards tell me how a training day should be run. While I think the discussion on how to use flyer’s in marking situations is a great topic, nothing I’ve seen from HRC tells me that they know a darn thing about it.

/Paul

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

I don't understand the question....

Angie

I don’t think Snick did when he asked it ether.
I agree a hole bunch with /paul and Ted and Nancy P
As for the for hunters by hunters part.
NAHRA was formed by hunters and the “i”’s were crossed and the “t”’s dotted
At a field trial right here in Vermont. Back when AKC and NAHRA worked together
For a season…. All were for hunters by hunters……..
Somehow, and I don’t know Nothing ‘bout ukc/hrc, nothing at all….
But somehow those hunters took the path they chose. The do seem to have fun at it.






.

 

[Snicklefritz]

You can say it’s an unfair characterization of UKC if you like and insinuate that I don’t participate, but reality is I am one of the founding members of the only HRC club in Oregon and currently am the sitting president. For the record, its been one of the worst experiences I’ve ever had in a club. The prejudice against AKC is unlike anything I’ve ever seen and AKC FT politics are child’s play compared to the stuff I’ve put up with from “true HRC” folks. I’ve ran herding dogs FT’s, NSTRA, AKC, Hounds and just about every retriever type of event you can think of and never have I witnesses the BS of what I have gone through in this club. After donating property, equipment, free training, seminars, untold amount of cash, and god knows how much time I’ve not once heard a thank you, but rather been told that “pro’s” are the problem with this club. I didn’t even sign up to be president, the last one quit after running 8 board members out of the club. To top it all off, I’ve had guys that can’t get their dogs to sit and successfully retrieve a live or dead bird at 30 yards tell me how a training day should be run. While I think the discussion on how to use flyer’s in marking situations is a great topic, nothing I’ve seen from HRC tells me that they know a darn thing about it.

/Paul

Originally Posted by Snicklefritz
Unfair characterization of UKC and those who participate.

Well, /Paul I didn't intend this statement quite the way you took it. Clearly, I've touched a nerve, and that was not my intent. My intent was to support what I believe to be the vast majority of UKC members.

I too have had differences with my local club that ended in my resignation from that club. But, I'm still a loyal UKC guy. And, that statement is not intended to 'one-up' you. Nor is it a statement about how you should feel or what you should do. It's just my response to my situation.

Fortunately, my experience with club members has been very positive, and I"ve found them knowledgeable, reasonable, and I enjoy being with them.

On the other hand, I've been a member of a board of directors in another, unrelated organization, and I know how unrewarding that can be.

Regards,

Chuck

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

...The prejudice against AKC is unlike anything I’ve ever seen and AKC FT politics are child’s play compared to the stuff I’ve put up with from “true HRC” folks....

/Paul

Some of them tossed a lot of hate at NAHRA during and right after rubbergate.
True nasty stuff. It was hard on the club I am a member of. Just about group hug time.
Then threads like this pop up




.

 

[Snicklefritz]

Some of them tossed a lot of hate at NAHRA during and right after rubbergate.
True nasty stuff. It was hard on the club I am a member of. Just about group hug time.
Then threads like this pop up
.

Ken, I don't have the history some have, and I believe you know that. And, I certainly hope, when you look at my original post, and my attempt to bring it back on topic, that neither you nor anyone else believes that stirring up hard feelings was my intent.

I can't believe I'm the only UKC person here. Is there another UKC person out there that doesn't feel animosity to AKC, or NAHRA, or anyone else, who would like to contribute?

Damn! 'Still waters run deep!'

Chuck

 

[22899]

Here goes!

The following is instruction on self-cooking a Goose.!

I am a UKC/HRC guy!

I have run in AKC tests, but only to the senior level.
I have a HRCH dog that I am really proud of. She also has a Senior Title, that was a struggle for us, but I just beamed when we got it.

I train with both HRC guys, and AKC HT guys.
I recently have been invited to train with a FT group.

I can HONESTLY say that the animosity I have experienced has been FROM HRC guys TOWARDS AKC guys! I think it’s boring and Childish.
Most ,don’t have a CLUE as to what they are talking about. Others just have a closed mind.

The HRC rule book and the Judges/ handlers seminar guide, Both allow and encourage, the use of Visible gunners, attention getting shots, combined with attention getting calls. Flyers are allowed also.

Though when discussions come up within my circle of HRC'rs. they will dismiss the suggestion that a call, shot, or visible gun MAY be a positive move to help a dog see, as unnecessary or to "AKSEA" like for a HUNTING dog.

I agree with what Ted has to say about marking.
The more I think about it, and read the HRC Judges/handlers seminar book, I believe IN SOME INSTANCES, we could go a long ways in being FAIR to the dogs, by opening our minds to the suggestions of the Written rules, and the teachings of the Judges/handlers seminar!

I will say this.
I have attended 3 or 4 training days now with the FT club.
I have trained with AKC HT'ers.

Those days have Always been really positive. All involved want to see dogs and handlers succeed. They have gone out of their way to help me, and ask questions about HRC tests. They have gone out of their way to welcome me.

I don’t know for sure, if I can say the same for the club training days I attend, with my HRC club.

If I ever get the chance to Judge levels in HRC, I want to make sure I take every effort allowed by rule to let the dog honestly see the mark.
If that means I feel a visible gun is required, an attention getting shot or call is required then I'm going to use them.
I think it’s a shame I have never seen a flyer in HRC in the 9 years I have participated. I would like to use Flyers in my tests if I judge.

Medium well goose regards:

Gooser

 

[Ted Shih]

I have never understood all of the animosity from one venue to another

I was one of the founding members of the Platte Valley HRC
I thought all of the guys and gals just wanted to train dogs.

I don't think I have been to an AKC or HRC event since the 1980's.
I got into FT in 1999, and that has been my focus since.
I think if anyone wants to spend time with his/her dogs and train, so much the better

Who cares what venue they chose?

 

[steve schreiner]

Ken, I don't have the history some have, and I believe you know that. And, I certainly hope, when you look at my original post, and my attempt to bring it back on topic, that neither you nor anyone else believes that stirring up hard feelings was my intent.

I can't believe I'm the only UKC person here. Is there another UKC person out there that doesn't feel animosity to AKC, or NAHRA, or anyone else, who would like to contribute?

Damn! 'Still waters run deep!'

Chuck

"I can't believe I'm the only UKC person here. Is there another UKC person out there that doesn't feel animosity to AKC,"

Chuck ...I'm the club president of an AKC club and a grunt of our sister HRC club ...members flow back and forth and support in whatever way we can...different game for different people...As Danny Farmer once put it " I'm for whatever will get dogs trained" That was at a seminar and the comment was made in response to his feelings about the hunt test game....Steve S

 

[steve schreiner]

Was the water test first? If so I would bet they were freshly thawerd birds from a previous test or trials live flyers. If you didn't get a flyer in the first series id'e be ticked. Never seen a AKC club gas birds
__________________
Todd

Todd ...We gas birds at every event we have, we do not use left over birds ...We give fresh birds to the Jr on Sunday just like we do on Sat....we use fresh killed birds on control birds and blinds at the beginning of the test ....Our bird bill shows it too....We don't skimp on them....no sinkers at our event ( I hope) Steve S ...

Rick wrote "I don't know what the reason(s) for UKC not using flyers is but I don't believe liability is the main one. The HRC test I mentioned above as well as others I've seen and know of where they were held around here were on the exact grounds that AKC runs on, and still no flyers in HRC."

If you are responsible for the purchasing insurance for the club you will find a box that ask if live shell will be used ....That raises the price of the policy .... Steve S

 

[Snicklefritz]

Steve, I don't want to bring the club into this discussion - it was a great hunt, and although many knew me as a UKC guy, I felt welcomed and appreciated.

And the condition of the birds had nothing to do with the results of the test on Saturday or Sunday. So, I'm not complaining, and I don't know if would have made a difference.

I know what I heard. But, I didn't see it. I can't say I recall whether the bird was cold, warm, or hot, when I took it from the dog. Much too busy with other details

But, are you making a statement that local clubs do not gas birds? But, it doesn't much matter to me.

Chuck

 

[Snicklefritz]

I have never understood all of the animosity from one venue to another

I was one of the founding members of the Platte Valley HRC
I thought all of the guys and gals just wanted to train dogs.

I don't think I have been to an AKC or HRC event since the 1980's.
I got into FT in 1999, and that has been my focus since.
I think if anyone wants to spend time with his/her dogs and train, so much the better

Who cares what venue they chose?

I couldn't agree more, and I suspect most newcomers don't care for baggage either. They just want to train and test.

Chuck

 

[Snicklefritz]

Chuck, you wrote nothing in your initial post about "washing out" any dogs. You wrote four separate questions, as four separate paragraphs with little to no supporting text to help the audience understand the purpose of your questions.

I don't understand how the use, or lack thereof, of a flyer in a started or intermediate level hunt test has any impact whatsoever on determination of the "best of the breed". Hunt tests were designed as non-competitive venues for the regular Joe to enjoy his dog.

It has been written and stated in many venues and settings that the most difficult stake to set up and judge is "Intermediate", "Senior" or "Seasoned".... This is the case for the whole event. Flyers are but a part of the consideration.

Good judging requires good judgement.

Signing off and staying off this thread this time....

Chris

(emphasis mine)

Sorry, I didn't use bullet points to make the connection between the questions more clear . I'll do so in the future.

If using flyers has no impact in judging ... then why use them?

Again, I don't object to them in principle. I just think they should be used in a way that aids a judges ability to judge marking and retrieving. If a flyer can interfere with either, then perhaps it would be best not to use them. That's most likely to occur with young dogs. intermediate and advanced dogs certainly should encounter live flyers ... IMHO... as a handler subject to failure for the same.

Chuck

 

[HarryWilliams]

Does anybody have that head scratching emoticon? If so please post. If not nevermind. HPW