[Good Dogs]

"What sort of bone head is going to shoot at a dog out in the field."
Answer: More than one.

At ATL a couple of years ago the judges called for a live flyer diversion as the dog was going for the 1st blind. Bird was shot to dog's right and parellel to his line. At MTN last year judges called for a live diversion shot as the dog was returning from the 1st mark. Shot was toward the returning dog to the right of his line.

If my "buddies" shot that close to my dog in actual hunting situations we would have some serious conversations. That said, you never know what some "bone head" is going to throw at you. Safety considerations aside handlers are, IMO, justified in asking what hunting scenario the judges are trying to replicate.

 

[torrentduck]

Once the dog is sent, especially into the water, all guns are put on safe. The goal is to walk away with dead ducks not freakin dead dogs. Isn't that what hunting tests are supposed to simulate? Judges who do this sort of thing aren't doing anyone any favors. Throw the poison while the dog is on line watching, then run the blind. Same with diversions with dog coming back in. What sort of bone head is going to shoot at a dog out in the field.

In no way am I advocating to shoot directly over or at a dog coming in or going out (and you won't hunt with me again if you do that-- you may be lucky if you even get a ride home). However, at least in duck blind situations on water, it is not uncommon for birds to decoy in when dogs are on the water and not uncommon for hunters to shoot at them. And it is feasible a bird will drop within 20 feet of a dog. Obviously this requires that you know your hunting buddies and how they hunt around your dog and you, and have understanding of expectations. A duck shot at 40 yards out from the blind with the dog 40 yards out the other side making a retrieve poses not threat to your dog.....so the described set up would a least be acceptable to me. I haven't personally done field hunting for waterfowl, but expect the same thing is seen in this situation. Upland hunting is altogether different, but certainly if a cock pheasant flushes to the right 30 plus yards from a retriever running to the left to pick up a downed bird, one of the hunters in the line might knock that bird down assuming they are to the left of the dog (i.e. create a diversion).

Regarding the test described -- dropping the diversion so close (though as I mentioned, can happen in real life) does border on being unfair in my opinion, particularly to dogs that run like bullets. Any diversion that requires a gun to be fired (popper or other wise) in the line of a dog is indeed "bone head".

 

[BrettG]

Since I run set up and test dog for SRS my dog has to be able to do this so I do train on it. It is alot of fun when you get to the point they understand what's up. I set one up last fall thats was cool. You have a water blind that is 190 yards, 50 yards of land split 2 trees that are 10 feet apart cross a cove of about 50 yards of running water get on a point at which time up the hill to the left a bird is launched out of a winger toward the line to the blind and lands about 10 yds off line. (point is about 20 yds wide) continue over the point back into the water across the next cove of about 30 yards then up and out another 30 or so yards. To make it even more interesting I threw a mark off to the right into the pond converging on the line. I'll look for a picture of the set up. It was a lot of fun.

 

[birdboy]

As I design them the bird is launched well ahead of and away from the dog.

Evan

Not so in this case. Winger was up the hill, throwing down on the dog. Not saying it was wrong. When I left out there was something like 8 out of 25 dogs that completed this test. Seemed more like a culling than a test.

 

[steve schreiner]

Not so in this case. Winger was up the hill, throwing down on the dog. Not saying it was wrong. When I left out there was something like 8 out of 25 dogs that completed this test. Seemed more like a culling than a test.

That is what a test is ...culling the bad from the good .....the trained from the untrained ....Steve S

 

[HarryWilliams]

There's a big difference between a dead bird thrown and a live bird shot. Just as there's a big difference with the direction the bird is thrown and the direction it is shot.

Some of you seem to think that the live bird is being thrown at the line to the blind while the dog is passing through and then getting sluiced for good measure.

Doesn't jumping that far to a conclusion make ya tired? HPW

 

[Chris Rosier]

That is what a test is ...culling the bad from the good .....the trained from the untrained ....Steve S

Come on man, these tests are supposed to simulate true hunting situations. Somebody in the blind with me shoots over my dog at the angle this bird was thrown and that hunt is over for them. Im not saying that outgoing diversions shouldnt be thrown, but throwing them AT the dog is cheezy at best.

Each flight had 45 dogs in it. The other two flights passed 35 and 37 dogs. The one birdboy was in passed 16. Guess all the "trained" dogs wound up in those other two flights.

 

[Evan]

Not so in this case. Winger was up the hill, throwing down on the dog. Not saying it was wrong. When I left out there was something like 8 out of 25 dogs that completed this test. Seemed more like a culling than a test.

Did they shoot a flyer, or was it a dead bird? It's a very big difference. It's not that hard to set a safe one up. But then common sense isn't that common, is it?

Evan

 

[copterdoc]

It was thrown when the dog was running a blind, so it was legal.

Yup.

This one is in the rule book.

So, why aren't poison birds covered in the rule book?

 

[Steve Shaver]

Come on man, these tests are supposed to simulate true hunting situations. Somebody in the blind with me shoots over my dog at the angle this bird was thrown and that hunt is over for them. Im not saying that outgoing diversions shouldnt be thrown, but throwing them AT the dog is cheezy at best.

Each flight had 45 dogs in it. The other two flights passed 35 and 37 dogs. The one birdboy was in passed 16. Guess all the "trained" dogs wound up in those other two flights.

!6 out of 45 seems like a normal pass rate for a Master to me. 35 out of 45 sounds more like a junior test.
As far as this test goes I have no problem with it as long as it is done safely. I havent been training on it but I guess I should.

 

[captainjack]

Read or heard (can't remember which) this story about an SRS competitor...

Running a blind, a diversion poison bird is thrown on the way out. This handler timed the throw of the poison bird while watching the early dogs run. When his turn to run came, he stopped his dog on the whistle just before the diversion shot/throw happened. His dog never saw the diversion bird. He continued the blind without the multiple whistles of his fellow competitors (whistles are counted in SRS), then picked up the poison bird.

 

[steve schreiner]

Come on man, these tests are supposed to simulate true hunting situations. Somebody in the blind with me shoots over my dog at the angle this bird was thrown and that hunt is over for them. Im not saying that outgoing diversions shouldnt be thrown, but throwing them AT the dog is cheezy at best.

Each flight had 45 dogs in it. The other two flights passed 35 and 37 dogs. The one birdboy was in passed 16. Guess all the "trained" dogs wound up in those other two flights.

They do simulate true hunting situations...I can't say if safety was an issue or not ...The judges that set the test and the throwers had to make that call....I can only assume it was safe since the test went on ....As for the number of passes in each flight, Did all dogs have the same test? They don't have to be tested on the same concepts in all flights...This is an issue that some choose not to train for and could explain the high failure rate...The bottom line is , will your dog sit on a whistle and take a cast....You determine the circumstances you want control of with your dog ...This same thing plays out about every weekend there are split masters...One test demands more control or has more difficult marks than the other and the pass/fail rates are very different...Sorry you found yourself in the difficult group that weekend...Steve S

 

[steve schreiner]

Read or heard (can't remember which) this story about an SRS competitor...

Running a blind, a diversion poison bird is thrown on the way out. This handler timed the throw of the poison bird while watching the early dogs run. When his turn to run came, he stopped his dog on the whistle just before the diversion shot/throw happened. His dog never saw the diversion bird. He continued the blind without the multiple whistles of his fellow competitors (whistles are counted in SRS), then picked up the poison bird.

This person should have been eliminated on the spot....they avoided the test ...
"he stopped his dog on the whistle just before the diversion shot/throw happened. ...Poor judging to let this happen in my opinion...I would hope the instructions were given that you could sit your dog after the diversion appears...Steve S

 

[birdboy]

Did they shoot a flyer, or was it a dead bird? It's a very big difference. It's not that hard to set a safe one up. But then common sense isn't that common, is it?

Evan

Evan, It was a dead bird. You send your dog from the line. About 30% of the way out, the birdboy blows a duck call, launches a dead bird shoots a popper. Bird lands about 20 feet from the true line to the blind. Not that live or dead would have changed anything for us. Dogs will be dogs; especially when exposed to things they have never seen.

Yup.

This one is in the rule book.

So, why aren't poison birds covered in the rule book?

Thanks for reading along. Like was covered on page one, the legality of the test or bird was never in question. Just wanted a count on how often this is seen and how many people train on this concept.

That is what a test is ...culling the bad from the good .....the trained from the untrained ....Steve S

I understand what you are saying and as I said before, I enjoy a challange and like to see my hound do well in the face of adversity. Just wasnt in the cards for us this time. We will work on this concept for the future. I cant be mad at her or her performance, her pups are only 11 or 12 weeks old.

 

[Furball]

All I want to say is, QUIT GIVING THE JUDGES IDEAS! They could be reading this! ACK!!!!

 

[BrettG]

Had a few try that last year at Huntsville in the first series. Since I was calling for the diversion to be thrown the judges instructed me to only call for the bird when the dog was moving. Didn't have any not see it. Now a couple years ago in union city we had one thrown when a dog to a certain point in the blind and had several try to cheat it.

 

[Chris Rosier]

They do simulate true hunting situations...I can't say if safety was an issue or not ...The judges that set the test and the throwers had to make that call....I can only assume it was safe since the test went on ....As for the number of passes in each flight, Did all dogs have the same test? They don't have to be tested on the same concepts in all flights...This is an issue that some choose not to train for and could explain the high failure rate...The bottom line is , will your dog sit on a whistle and take a cast....You determine the circumstances you want control of with your dog ...This same thing plays out about every weekend there are split masters...One test demands more control or has more difficult marks than the other and the pass/fail rates are very different...Sorry you found yourself in the difficult group that weekend...Steve S

I wasnt in that flight, just went over to watch a few folks I knew, but thanks.

This person should have been eliminated on the spot....they avoided the test ...
"he stopped his dog on the whistle just before the diversion shot/throw happened. ...Poor judging to let this happen in my opinion...I would hope the instructions were given that you could sit your dog after the diversion appears...Steve S

Sounds like smart handling to me.......

 

[tom]

Thanks for reading along. Like was covered on page one, the legality of the test or bird was never in question. Just wanted a count on how often this is seen and how many people train on this concept.

I should point out that I don't train for this because I might see it in a test. I train for it because it is what a trained gundog is suppose to do. And yes, in a test I would blow a whistle, but I bet her butt would hit the ground while I was still inhaling. Strange how much better they mark those diversions birds when they sit and watch them fall.

 

[Evan]

Evan, It was a dead bird. You send your dog from the line. About 30% of the way out, the birdboy blows a duck call, launches a dead bird shoots a popper. Bird lands about 20 feet from the true line to the blind. Not that live or dead would have changed anything for us. Dogs will be dogs; especially when exposed to things they have never seen.

I'd love to see a diagram, or better yet a video clip of this.

Evan

 

[JoeOverby]

Come on man, these tests are supposed to simulate true hunting situations. Somebody in the blind with me shoots over my dog at the angle this bird was thrown and that hunt is over for them. Im not saying that outgoing diversions shouldnt be thrown, but throwing them AT the dog is cheezy at best.

Each flight had 45 dogs in it. The other two flights passed 35 and 37 dogs. The one birdboy was in passed 16. Guess all the "trained" dogs wound up in those other two flights.

Who cares about the pass rate? IMO both the AKC and HRC hunt tests have gotten "watered down" in the past few years. I would rather see more tests with lower pass rates but know that the dogs that passed EARNED their passes. HRCH and MH titles are supposed to represent some sort of accomplishment not just be handed out like mardi gras beads! Im not saying that the dogs in the other flights did not deserve their passes BUT IMO if you have a well trained retriever then the pass rate won't matter to you..more often than not you'll find yourself sporting a ribbon!