[dexdoolittle]

Dex, whatkinds of things do you do, when repeating a mark due to a dog failing an aspect of that mark, to change the outcome on the repeat?

All too often, I see dogs who fail an aspect of a mark, do something similar on the repeat. (or in my mind, they get away with enough on the repeat that I frequently come away wondering what positive they learned from the repeat)

One aspect that trainers have a hard time conveying is that dogs need to do things because they(dog) made the right decision. If you can understand that wording. It is similar to letting a dog ride over a piece of land with water behind it. If he consistently cheats it and you show him what you want, is he truelly understanding what is being asked. NO. You should allow him to make his on decisions, because come trial day you can not make them for him. So, in training you are going to let him make the decison, hopefully the wrong one(for training purposes) so you can correct. If repeated hopefully the next time when the decision process comes he realizes that it is better to take your route.

If you repeat and the dog makes the same mistake as he did the first time you have not gained anything out or your training process.

 

[copterdoc]

There is something else that I want to add, to my previous post.

Even if the dog is successful on the repeated mark, I think we need to ask ourselves a question or two.

Was the dog successful for a "good reason"?

What if the dog was successful, for a "bad reason"?

Did the dog mark the fall on it's second try, or did it still not mark the fall, and instead received success for simply returning to the place that it previously found a bird?

Dex, do you agree with the above, or am I all wet?

 

[dexdoolittle]

Dex, do you agree with the above, or am I all wet?

I think I agree. I think you should step back and ask yourself what were you trying to accomplish, cheaty water mark, angle entry, lining into cover, there should be a reason you put a mark where you do. So what is it you want the dog to learn from a certain mark. If he is not accomplishing what you set out to teach him then you are right repeating for the sake of repeating is wasting time.

 

[captainjack]

At least with the people that I train with, the rerun is not about memory but giving into factors. This may mean the dog ran poor lines or it may mean he got completely lost because the factors such as terrain, cover, wind and the relationship of the marks to each other.

...

When running the 1st time through, do you handle when the dog gives into a factor or let the dog try to work it out and find the bird on its own.

 

[Kory Poulsen]

Would if you are running a triple and your focus bird (concept your working on for the session) is thrown second and picked up second and the dog struggles big time. Bird #3 is still laying on the ground. Do you send for #3 anyways? Do you put the dog up then come back and run #2 (repeat) and #3 again? Rerun the whole setup? Rerun same setup in new field? What would be the best way to teach the dog the concept of bird #2 which will make the biggest impression on them for the future?

 

[copterdoc]

Would if you are running a triple and your focus bird (concept your working on for the session) is thrown second and picked up second and the dog struggles big time. Bird #3 is still laying on the ground. Do you send for #3 anyways?

Me? Absolutely not!
I would be kicking myself for going "over the dog's head" on the #2 bird.

Do you put the dog up then come back and run #2 (repeat) and #3 again? Rerun the whole setup? Rerun same setup in new field? What would be the best way to teach the dog the concept of bird #2 which will make the biggest impression on them for the future?

I would try to figure out a way to simplify the mark, while retaining the concept that threw the dog for a loop, and run it as a double, in a different location.

I would not repeat #2, rerun the triple, or repeat it in a new location. The dog showed me what I need to work on. Instead of repeating the same outcome, I will try to isolate the concept, and train on it in as clearly defined of a scenario as I can.

That's what I would try to do. I'm not saying I would succeed!

 

[Howard N]

Would if you are running a triple and your focus bird (concept your working on for the session) is thrown second and picked up second and the dog struggles big time. Bird #3 is still laying on the ground. Do you send for #3 anyways? Do you put the dog up then come back and run #2 (repeat) and #3 again? Rerun the whole setup? Rerun same setup in new field? What would be the best way to teach the dog the concept of bird #2 which will make the biggest impression on them for the future?

If she mucks up the 2nd mark of a triple it'll depend on what the muck up was. If she was going to beach early and I corrected and put her on the bird I'll send for the 3rd bird and probably not repeat the 2nd mark. But, if it was a hunt all over hell's half acre with her giving in to factors, hunting short, hunting long and in general not having a clue where the bird was, I'll generally repeat as a single. After the muck up if she lines up for the 3rd bird I'll send her, if she doesn't have a clue I'll usually repeat the 2nd bird she mucked up as a single and throw the 3rd bird she never was sent for as a single. If the mucked up bird was a short to intermediate retired bird in front of a deeper flyer I'll repeat as a double or maybe as a complete triple. So if I repeat it or not or if I send for the 3rd bird or not depends on the mark, the setup, and how the dog mucks it up and if she remembers the 3rd bird.

Clear as mud huh?

 

[copterdoc]

...Clear as mud huh?

Well, clear as muck anyway!

 

[Howard N]

Me? Absolutely not!
I would be kicking myself for going "over the dog's head" on the #2 bird.


I would try to figure out a way to simplify the mark, while retaining the concept that threw the dog for a loop, and run it as a double, in a different location.

I would not repeat #2, rerun the triple, or repeat it in a new location. The dog showed me what I need to work on. Instead of repeating the same outcome, I will try to isolate the concept, and train on it in as clearly defined of a scenario as I can.

That's what I would try to do. I'm not saying I would succeed!

Copterdoc, we're training, we're trying to advance the dog. Why would you be kicking yourself for going above your dog's head? Look at any open, the first series is eliminating ~ 1/3 to 2/3rds of the entire field. How do we get dogs to this high a level by always staying within what the dog can do? We've got to stretch their minds and abilities out. We've got to approach and sometimes go over the threshold of what dogs can do. I feel if you aren't failing 10 to 20 percent of your marking setups your dog isn't learning. If they are doing everything in good shape I'll bet they're regressing, not advancing or even maintaining. Failures are part of training, consider them training opportunities.

You've got to think about the mark and why the dog failed. I like to repeat it right then and there so hopefully the dog will know where the bird is and will learn the way to get there. If she cheats something or gives in to something I'll handle when I see it to show her the way she should have done it. It's your fault if the dog repeats the same mistake(s) and you don't show it the correct way to do the mark.

You definitely should break the failed mark down into factors, maybe combinations of factors, and work on them in other places and other times. That's training too.

 

[copterdoc]

....Failures are part of training, consider them training opportunities.....

I agree, but if the dog failed to mark, or remember the bird, then I think that I failed the dog.

It's one thing if the dog caved in to a factor, or wasn't trying hard enough.

It's another, if I was trying to "show off" for the training group, or just for myself, and hack my way through a mark that my dog wasn't ready for.

I could repeat a lot of marks, and the dog might "do them" on the "mulligan", but I think that trying to look good, is a poor training objective.

I try, I mean really try, to keep the dog in it's "grade", and when the dog gets lost on a mark, I can usually see that it was my fault.

I think the dog learns the most, when it is challenged "just right". Not too much, not too little.

That's a tough balance to strike though....

 

[Gun_Dog2002]

80/20 rule. Howard is right. The dog should be failing at some times. This question is impossible to answer because it depends on the dog, the setup, how things went yesterday, what just happened, and do I have time and opportunity to set new test.


/Paul

 

[Russ]

When running the 1st time through, do you handle when the dog gives into a factor or let the dog try to work it out and find the bird on its own.

It depends(Where has LVL been??) Sometimes handle, sometimes have the gunner help, sometimes pickup the dog and start over.

 

[minnducker]

Some pros allow amateur customers to participate in daily training sessions. The amateurs may handle their own dogs, or if their dog is currently "with the pro", the pro may do the handling. This helps the pro somewhat as these folks throw birds, plant blinds etc., and the amateurs learn a lot by observing the test set-ups, watching, and asking questions. In general, pros have a limited amount of time to spend with each dog compared to an amatuer trainer with 1, or a very few dogs. During these types of training days, most pros may not allow re-runs for any reason. And, they may exaggerate the reasons not to do re-runs, to better justify this rule since they know it will be difficult to give everyone an opportunity to run all the tests. They also likely have some goals in mind for set-ups for the day, and time will simply not allow for re-running some of them..
But I don't think amateurs need a hard and fast rule that NEVER allows re-runs.

Possible reasons to re-run a test -

Dog is younger, learning new concepts and received a correction on first run
Because of dog's past history/experience/stage of training, you want to make sure the correction had the desired effect
Dog's "balance" is a bit off, and dog could use a confidence builder
Last set-up of the day, dog received correction, re-run and leave on a good note

Possible reasons NOT to repeat a test -

Dog did test perfectly with no corrections
Dog's performance and correction on test was severely screwed up, and it's clear test is way over dog's current abilities, and correction did not accomplish anything
Dog is older, has had many similar corrections with no ill-effects, and is in "balance" regarding attitude and style
You are training with a group, where one or more partcipants subscribe to the notion that you never repeat a test, don't rock boat
Training group is too large, time is short
A storm is coming

 

[Chris Atkinson]

Some pros allow amateur customers to participate in daily training sessions. The amateurs may handle their own dogs, or if their dog is currently "with the pro", the pro may do the handling. This helps the pro somewhat as these folks throw birds, plant blinds etc., and the amateurs learn a lot by observing the test set-ups, watching, and asking questions. In general, pros have a limited amount of time to spend with each dog compared to an amatuer trainer with 1, or a very few dogs. During these types of training days, most pros may not allow re-runs for any reason. And, they may exaggerate the reasons not to do re-runs, to better justify this rule since they know it will be difficult to give everyone an opportunity to run all the tests. They also likely have some goals in mind for set-ups for the day, and time will simply not allow for re-running some of them..
But I don't think amateurs need a hard and fast rule that NEVER allows re-runs.

Possible reasons to re-run a test -

Dog is younger, learning new concepts and received a correction on first run
Because of dog's past history/experience/stage of training, you want to make sure the correction had the desired effect
Dog's "balance" is a bit off, and dog could use a confidence builder
Last set-up of the day, dog received correction, re-run and leave on a good note

Possible reasons NOT to repeat a test -

Dog did test perfectly with no corrections
Dog's performance and correction on test was severely screwed up, and it's clear test is way over dog's current abilities, and correction did not accomplish anything
Dog is older, has had many similar corrections with no ill-effects, and is in "balance" regarding attitude and style
You are training with a group, where one or more partcipants subscribe to the notion that you never repeat a test, don't rock boat
Training group is too large, time is short
A storm is coming

Regarding the bolded above, I have a hard time reconciling what happens when the dog repeats the same kind of thing he did on the first run. Or what happens if he tries to repeat again, and you choose to "correct" yet again? (in this second case, your original intention was to end on a good note, yet you wound up digging back into the same hole you were hoping to avoid with the rerun)

That's where I personally come up unsure if it is worth taking the chance.

 

[dexdoolittle]

Regarding the bolded above, I have a hard time reconciling what happens when the dog repeats the same kind of thing he did on the first run. Or what happens if he tries to repeat again, and you choose to "correct" yet again? (in this second case, your original intention was to end on a good note, yet you wound up digging back into the same hole you were hoping to avoid with the rerun)

That's where I personally come up unsure if it is worth taking the chance.[/QUOTE

Without taking the chance how do you know your dog learned what was intended. So what if, you repeated and he does the same thing that he did the first time. What I would be more concered with is that I did not get my point across the first time. The correction was not enough for him to make a different decision the next. Most on here can not duplicate similar marks on similar training grounds. They will benefit more by getting their point across by repeating marks than trying to duplicate similar scenarios.

 

[Chris Atkinson]

Regarding the bolded above, I have a hard time reconciling what happens when the dog repeats the same kind of thing he did on the first run. Or what happens if he tries to repeat again, and you choose to "correct" yet again? (in this second case, your original intention was to end on a good note, yet you wound up digging back into the same hole you were hoping to avoid with the rerun)

That's where I personally come up unsure if it is worth taking the chance.[/QUOTE

Without taking the chance how do you know your dog learned what was intended. So what if, you repeated and he does the same thing that he did the first time. What I would be more concered with is that I did not get my point across the first time. The correction was not enough for him to make a different decision the next. Most on here can not duplicate similar marks on similar training grounds. They will benefit more by getting their point across by repeating marks than trying to duplicate similar scenarios.

I get that Dex. In the context of the part I bolded in the quote, the intent by that poster was to repeat the mark, due to the fact that the dog got a correction, in order to "end on a good note".

I'm thinking a preferable way to "end on a good note" may be to do something that the dog is likely to succeed on. Then repeat the thing he got corrected on before in a later session when you're not concerned about him ending on a bad note.

 

[Howard N]

Most on here can not duplicate similar marks on similar training grounds. They will benefit more by getting their point across by repeating marks than trying to duplicate similar scenarios.

On the quote above, if you substituted Howard, for "Most on here," you'd have the reason I repeat.

Thanks Dex for articulating this.

 

[PhilBernardi]

Because, if the dog failed to MARK, the fall, and that is the reason that it needed to be helped or handled, the dog is probably not going mark the repeated fall, if you don't change something.

Just repeating the mark, doesn't teach the dog anything. It will still fail to mark the fall.

I believe that a marked retrieve can be broken down into "sections", and the dog can fail to do any one of those "sections".

If the "section" that the dog failed to do, resulted in it not knowing where the bird is, I don't think that repeating the same thing, is going to produce a different result.

It's kind of like the definition of insanity. Repeating the same thing, over and over again, but expecting a different result. -- Coptor

Maybe, maybe not. It depends.

If a dog fails a 170 yrd land mark due to a factor, let's say, an optical illusion due to slight rolling terrain, and you're confident about your dog's eyes being good and the dog hunts 20 yards short and this is the first time on this terrain, do you handle or have the BB help?

I'd have the BB help, then I'd rerun the mark to see if the dog learned anything about the previous mark: namely, did he/she adjust/calibrate their perception of the distance of the mark? If I don't rerun, I have no way of knowing in that instance whether the dog "gets it". I have to rerun inorder to find out. Now, can I wait a day rerun? Maybe, maybe not; dedends on schedule and access to that spot.

What if I rerun and the dog fails again? Then I shorten the mark so that dog can succeed, then lengthen it back out. If the dog fails again on the long mark, then I stop and ask much more critically, why is he failing on this long mark? It might end up that the mark is broken down into pieces so that parts of the rolling terrain are deal with individually, then slowly pieced back together (much more methodically than simple shortening the mark and lengthening it back out).

Everything in context, everything in moderation.

 

[Mary Lynn Metras]

What is everyone's take on re-running a mark when a dog struggles with it the first go round? I'm reading in James Spencer's book on marking and he goes over a drill where you re-run the mark as many times as needed if your dog isin't stepping on it. I've heard 2 opinions from many people, no one seems to ride the fence on this issue. Any opinions?

Yes I would rerun the mark again if he really messed up!!!Obviously something amiss there where he does not get it first go around. Hopefully I can decipher what the problem was and correct it.

 

[Kory Poulsen]

Possible reasons to re-run a test -

Dog is younger, learning new concepts and received a correction on first run
-
-
-
Last set-up of the day, dog received correction, re-run and leave on a good note

Does re-running to leave on good note do anything for a dog running at the QAA/Am/Open level? I tend to think that these two items above go hand in hand with the younger dog, but how about for the more experienced dog?