[Sharon Potter]

Alec, I'm not far behind you in number of dogs through FF. And I can't see the YouTube video either, with my sluggish connection.

Years ago, before I knew there was such a thing as a retrieving table, I did all the dogs on the ground. I (and my bad back) much prefer the table. Plus, the "sacking out" work I do, meaning rubbing the dog all over and handling everything from toes to tail and in between, is something the dogs really enjoy and helps them for other things in life, like vet visits, ear cleaning, clipping toenails, grooming/clipping/removing burrs, etc.

I find the post to be beneficial as well.....the dogs that are already used to real restriction on a chain gang and/or lead don't argue at all, and are cool with being there. The dogs that have never in their lives had to be restricted in any real way (except maybe on one of those flexi-leads) need some prep work on basic OB before the table, and they're usually the ones most likely to pitch a fit, mostly because they're spoiled and used to having their own way.

Carol's pup was a quick study, thanks to all the work she's put into him plus a very strong natural desire to retrieve. Most of his table time was because Carol wanted to learn the process....had it been just me, he'd probably have been through the table part in about a week, maybe ten days tops.

He was a pleasure to work with compared to some of the dogs I get in here for FF. I am not putting all that much pressure on a dog....just enough to show them what I want and form a conditioned response.

A good example of how the post affects the dogs I work with: a few years back, a trainer friend of mine sent his assistant trainer up here to learn FF from me. The guy is about 6'3", ex-military, and tougher than nails, but he loves his dogs. He brought two of his personal dogs to work with, both English Pointers. All the prep work went smoothly and he did a great job....the dogs love the rub down/massage sessions that precede each lesson. Then it was time for the ear pinch. While it took very little pressure for his dog to respond and she handled it happily, he felt terrible about doing it and thought the dog would hate him. At the next session, his dog came back, leaped up on the table, ran to the post, leaned against it and waited to be strapped in. She wasn't the least bit put off by it.

The flip side of that is the dogs that come in with attitude problems and temperament issues. At 5'3" I'm not big enough to wrestle with them and I don't have their teeth or nails. I'm much safer working them strapped to the post while we work through their attitude as opposed to getting my face or hands or arms ripped off. I've not had too many that were that bad, but I've worked through a good many biters on the table, where the restriction kept us both safe while they learned to accept being handled.

In probably 350 dogs, I have yet to have one that suffered any negative effects from the table/post time, in enthusiasm, desire, relationship to humans, or any other after effects.

I don't think it's the table or the post that's the problem....it's the person using it that makes or breaks the process.

 

[PackLeader]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n48Lbv6Gfic&feature=related

Whats happening here

john

Lots of things over the course of that day. Mostly he was learning to go under pressure, and sit still while an object is being placed in his mouth. As you can see I work very hard on that part and he never even thinks about bugging on me.

 

[Grasshopper]

In addition to using a table (tack trunk) for a bit of hold and fetch work, I like to use it to teach the command "table". Comes in handy for grooming, exams, getting into the Gator bed and truck bed, etc.



And forgive me for giving the command 3 times, Helen was a little confused, she is a blonde, after all.

Kathryn

 

[Alec Sparks]

Alex ,

With your methodology, when you are finished with FF.... how is the necessary foundation securely in place to progress through the yard and beyond ....when do you FORCE the dog?

john

John, The dogs I train are 'finished' when they'll fetch as briskly as I've able to get them to, fetch a variety of different bumpers [big/small/canvas/soft plastic/hard/etc.] that will be placed in locations/situations that they must make an effort to get them [i.e. alongside my truck tire, distractions such as people or other dogs loose in the area.] not just teed on the practice tee so to speak.

They must fetch under a level of collar pressure that shows that they will 'push through' that level and fetch. Fetch a variety of birds [once they know how to handle them as I train some dogs that have never seen a bird in their lives until they arrive at the kennel] at that same collar level.

I feel any dog can encounter levels of pressure that will cause a fetch refusal so judging the max level of fetch collar enforcement is important.

I want to end fetch knowing that I have excellent compliance with fetch/hold that gives the dog the foundation to reliable deliver birds/bumpers to hand on land/water and prepares them for the next training step [which is the 3-hand cast in the flow I usually follow.

Additionally, these day the overwhelming number of dogs I train are going home to novice 'trained dog' homes that do not have the support of a training group to help if problems arise. All my clients are encouraged to keep in touch regarding the dogs behavior to make sure they transition their skill to the owner as well as possible.

My goal through all this is to use as little pressure as needed to get the desired foundation/results and do so in a training environment where the dog is relaxed and comfortable. Personally I've found that place to be the ground for those reasons and several others.

I'll start a bit of hold during OB...nothing much just one rep of a couple seconds from time to time so hopefully when I begin in earnest the concept will be familiar and not threatening.

Generally working on our lawn in the shade of several mature oaks in the summer, in the sun during cooler weather or perhaps by the training pond, I'll ask for a few holds or fetches then move off a bit relaxing the dog and showing it those commands apply in different locations. 15-20 repeats is all I ask for generally and look for improvement day to day, I'm not looking for as much progress as I can possibly get per session, just progress.

Try as I might, not all dogs go through FF with a great attitude and some individuals are extremely difficult so I still hope to evolve my methods.

I've FF a number of dogs with the collar alone.

FWIW: I learned FF by the numbers 20+ years ago from to long time Rex C friends/student/pros, ear, stick, marble and collar. I also spent a winter working for a pro that employed a table and toe hitch so I have experience with that method. In my early professional years I employed a number of different methods and techniques but fairly quickly developed a knack for successfully ff using less then common [at the time and still today] FF method doctrine.

 

[2tall]

Dennis and Alec, thanks to both of you for sharing insights and ideas. I know I will explore some of these in the future. For the "right now" I must say that I am satisfied with the way my pup has come through this part of training. There was no drama, no stone walls, and no bad attitude and I am happy with the results. Please know that Chief's OB work did not end when he went up on the table. He has made measurable progress in all aspects of his work since we got up here where we are able to train daily with some careful guidance from Sharon. I used the terms I did to describe the way he was, not the way he is now! (and I doubt I would ever want to feed a dog that was not full of piss and vinegar, I just need to guide it)

But I am very serious, thank you both for giving me some new ways of looking at some old traditions. I really like what you said Alec, about always growing and being open to what works best for the dogs, not the fastest or easiest for the trainer.

And Dennis, all I have to do to remember the standard of behavior I must attain, is remember walking to the line with Indy yesterday! I don't think I could live through another one like him.

 

[RetrieversONLINE]

I must say that I am satisfied with the way my pup has come through this part of training. There was no drama, no stone walls, and no bad attitude and I am happy with the results. quote]

Carol, thanks

These are real important statements.

1. If a person is happy with their dog,

2.If that person has done the best that they can to make their dog the best that it can be, AND

3.If the process was fair, humane, and respectful of the dog,

What else can any of us ask for? Well, maybe to keep trying to get better!!

 

[Alec Sparks]

Thanks Carol, Dennis and I seem to be pretty much on the same page with regards to making the dogs journey the most important aspect of training, not the trainers.

Honestly, I was really happy with how the first 10 dogs I ever CC/FF came out. In hind sight, I'm still happy, but holy heck, have I evolved in my training methods.

Just keep an open mind and always look at any method and ask yourself if it's truly a better way or just another way?

Sharon, Glad to hear of your great success using a table. At 6' 9" I do have an advantage with difficult adult dogs. If all factors were identical in regard to how a dog dealt/learned and transitioned from a table VS the ground, I'd still FF on the ground. I enjoy the flexibility of FF where ever suits the day and wouldn't like be tied [how's that for a pun?] to a table.

Puns aside, I just find a dog hooked to a post or overhead wire 'unattractive' and I would have to see an advantage for the dog to employ them.

FWIW: It's the common doctrine I read online so much about FF that really bothers me........Novice has a youngster and look for FF advice.....

"Build a table, strap it in, pinch till you get the dummy in and man up because FF is a battle you have to win".

 

[Sharon Potter]

FWIW: It's the common doctrine I read online so much about FF that really bothers me........Novice has a youngster and look for FF advice.....

"Build a table, strap it in, pinch till you get the dummy in and man up because FF is a battle you have to win".

Yep. Quick way to screw up a dog in a hurry. No need for battles.

I really don't think it's possible to learn the process from a book or video. Hands-on with good instruction is best.

Even using the collar method, I know of some trainers who use alligator clips attached via wire to the contact points of the collar and clipped to the ear...and they are using high level stimulation to get the dog to vocalize. Not good....but it's easy for a newbie to get confused when they hear "collar".

And I agree....internet training is the absolute worst! No way to read the dog, observe and read the human....it's just a train wreck waiting to happen.

 

[mikebosmans]

"I just started hold with my youngest and I was wandering what some of you used when starting to teach "HOLD"? "

Anybody remember this? Pretty sure it was the original post, kinda lost track of it along the way here.

I for one wouldn't mind hearing a couple more of peoples approaches to this topic, not how many dogs have you FF'd, which FF way is best etc.

 

[Sharon Potter]

When I start teaching hold, it's with a leather gloved hand placed palm down, in the dog's mouth, with my fingers hanging relaxed and out on the side away from me. This gives me a way to "feel" the dog's grip, adjust as needed, and develop the mouth. From there, I go to a wood dowel, 1" or larger. When that is solid, I move to other objects with varying sizes, weights and textures, from bumpers to half filled water bottles to anything else that's handy.

 

[kindakinky]

This is such an informative and interesting thread and I love the discussions about what does "fetch" and what does "hold" and "sit", "stay", etc., mean.

Here's my question: if there was some odd AKC retriever competition--let's say either a field trial or hunting test in which the competition required an honor by your dog--AND YOU COULD NOT USE YOUR DOG'S NAME AT ANY TIME DURING THE TEST--what command word(s) to your dog would you use while competing in this test?

J. Marti

 

[TPhillips]

Something that rymed with my dogs name of course!

 

[RetrieversONLINE]

This is such an informative and interesting thread and I love the discussions about what does "fetch" and what does "hold" and "sit", "stay", etc., mean.

Here's my question: if there was some odd AKC retriever competition--let's say either a field trial or hunting test in which the competition required an honor by your dog--AND YOU COULD NOT USE YOUR DOG'S NAME AT ANY TIME DURING THE TEST--what command word(s) to your dog would you use while competing in this test?

J. Marti

Not sure what you are getting at here. But I usually only use my dogs name to release on a mark. I don't say Obe sit. Obe here. If I couldnt release on name he'd go on back. Interestingly today I trained my high power dog Obe all day without saying ANYTHING except his name to go on marks. No sits no here's no heels no cues. It's a good exercise and will teach you how good they are at body English and how tp communicate with less is more.

 

[Alec Sparks]

Man, I really wanna name a dog 'Know' and go run a few trials.......

 

[kindakinky]

Getting at you folks are debating whether you teach hold or just fetch or a combo (or none)

My point is this: most retrievers are sent on their name in trials. So: what does it mean when you utter your retriever's name on the line at a trial? Does it mean "hold"? Or "fetch"? Or "back"?

If you were at a trial and there was a dead duck 200 yards away and you couldn't use your dog's name to send the dog to retrieve the bird, what word would you use?

All I'm trying to understand is what you have all been posting: is the word for going out and getting the bird the dog's name, or the word "fetch", or the word "hold", or the word "back". Or something else?

I'm not criticizing. I'm trying to understand why people use their dogs' names at the line to send them to retrieve but use different words--like "fetch", "hold", "back", "over" when training and how you transition among these words.

J. Marti

 

[Howard N]

I'm not criticizing. I'm trying to understand why people use their dogs' names at the line to send them to retrieve but use different words--like "fetch", "hold", "back", "over" when training and how you transition among these words.

When you have several dogs sending only one on it's name comes in handy. I do like, "Back," on a blind as it distinguishes between a mark and a blind and I hope it helps the dog in a complicated setup where you have both marks and blinds and they are picking them up in the order the judge wants.

I don't use, "Hold," but do use, "Fetch," during force fetch and when a dog drops the bird or I drop a bird on the line. They are picking up something right there not going out for a mark or a blind. "Over," and "Back," are also used when the dog is handling out away from you and you're giving directions.

 

[kindakinky]

Thank you for the replies. I think there was a few days way back when when most dogs were sent with a "back". Could be misremembering tho