[badbullgator]

Ok, if your club hires bird boys or workers for a test/trial do you

1) need to have workers comp insurance?
2) need to pay minimum wage at least?

we have used boy scouts and other organizations in the past and make a donation to the troop or organization. In this case it seems to me that the club is not actually "hiring" help but rather making a donation to an organized group who in turn volunteers their services.
Now, if you actually decide to pay individuals to work at your event, it seems to me that they become employees or contractors to the club. In this case would you not need to have workers comp insurance, or in the case of independent contractors they would have to have their own insurance to cover the clubs behind? It seems to me that if the club is paying someone to do a specified job (throwing birds or whatever) then that person is being hired and would be covered by labor and wage laws. This would mean that paying a 16 year old $50 to throw birds for a full day would mean that you need wc insurance for them and the $50 you pay would be less than the minimum wage ($50/8 hours =$6.25/hr).
My concern is that someone gets hurt and the company that provides a clubs liability insurance is going to say that they will not cover the injury because the person was employed and therefore must be covered by wc. I would also be concerned that a kid goes home and tells mom or dad that they worked 8-10 hours and made $50. I can see a parent thinking their child was taken advantage of and making an issue of it.
I know that in business you would have to pay minimum wage and have insurance. Is there something I am missing when it comes to a club?

 

[Thomas D]

In case you haven't seen this already:
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html

Seems there have been prior discussions about this on RTF.

 

[badbullgator]

In case you haven't seen this already:
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=99921,00.html

Seems there have been prior discussions about this on RTF.

Tom
Yes I have and that is part of what brings up the question. Since your an insurance guy, am I off base in thinking that our liability carrier will not cover a paid worker who is injured during an event?
BTW- I will give you a call later today. My phone was on the charger when you called last night.

 

[Scott Parker]

Have them sign a liability waver and if the club is non profit I'm not sure if you have to pay minimum wage I would think they would be considered independent contractors so it's up to them what they charge and they would have to have their own insurance.

 

[Thomas D]

WAS an insurance guy. NOW a dog guy.

I'll talk to you later, but you're certainly not off base for being concerned.

 

[TroyFeeken]

We carry workers comp insurance as well as a general insurance policy for member harm or equipment/building replacement.

 

[Zman1001]

Have them sign a liability waver and if the club is non profit I'm not sure if you have to pay minimum wage I would think they would be considered independent contractors so it's up to them what they charge and they would have to have their own insurance.

It definitely is a GRAY area. We all would like to consider them as independent contractors, however, I think if they wanted to push it, they, and the IRS, could argue strongly that they are employees, no matter if it is for 1 day or 3 days.

The main thing to remember in the discussion between employee and contractor is this:

1. Who controls what they do? (The club)
2. Who controls what time(s) they work? (The Club)

Those are the two most important questions asked, and with the answers given, they could be considered employees.

I never really thought about this question within the club level, but I can see how it would be of concern. I will check around and ask a few questions within the insurance adjuster world, and report back, but it may take me a few days to get it.

It may be good to have WC and Pers. Liability insurance to cover issues like this, rather than hope that Pers Liab covers it.

Now, thinking out loud. Another way to get around this is to consider all individuals volunteers, who receive a donation (i.e. like the boy scouts mentioned above, or maybe hunt club). All of the individuals who are there are volunteering their time, and in return, a donation is made to their cause. In this case, they would be volunteers, and I assume would fall under the Pers Liab coverage.

If we really want to find out how it works. Contract someone at the hunt club that held a Field Trial in Rocky Point a few weeks ago. They had an accident at the Derby, and this issue IS going to come up.

 

[Russ]

Laws vary from state to state but in almost all of them, workers compensation insurance is required for casual workers such as bird boys. I believe Texas is an exception, but other coverage must be taken out to protect the board of directors.

Here in California there are criminal penalties and fines possible for not carrying the coverage. Board members are joint and severably liable for for the workers comp benefits including penalties for not carrying coverage.

The standard ISO general liability excludes liability to employees. Our club carries General Liability, Workers Compensation and Directors & Officers Liability even though we are a very small club. Directors & Officers coverage does not cover failure to place adequate insurance coverage so this is not a possibility for coverage for injury to an employee.

Check with a commercial insurance professional in your area to confirm the applicable laws. Do not listen to what non-professionals "think".

Russ Stewart

 

[Jay Dufour]

Whats it gonna be when Obama care kicks in............

 

[MardiGras]

Our club carries both Liability and Worker's Compensation insurance. You also have to remember landowners would probably like to see that the club does have liability insurance (i.e. providing your landowners with a Certificate of Insurance). It is also a good idea to have each person entering the property (participants, spectators, bird boys, judges, field trial committee members, etc) all sign a waiver (as mentioned above).

 

[Raymond Little]

Ok, if your club hires bird boys or workers for a test/trial do you

1) need to have workers comp insurance?
2) need to pay minimum wage at least?

we have used boy scouts and other organizations in the past and make a donation to the troop or organization. In this case it seems to me that the club is not actually "hiring" help but rather making a donation to an organized group who in turn volunteers their services.
Now, if you actually decide to pay individuals to work at your event, it seems to me that they become employees or contractors to the club. In this case would you not need to have workers comp insurance, or in the case of independent contractors they would have to have their own insurance to cover the clubs behind? It seems to me that if the club is paying someone to do a specified job (throwing birds or whatever) then that person is being hired and would be covered by labor and wage laws. This would mean that paying a 16 year old $50 to throw birds for a full day would mean that you need wc insurance for them and the $50 you pay would be less than the minimum wage ($50/8 hours =$6.25/hr).
My concern is that someone gets hurt and the company that provides a clubs liability insurance is going to say that they will not cover the injury because the person was employed and therefore must be covered by wc. I would also be concerned that a kid goes home and tells mom or dad that they worked 8-10 hours and made $50. I can see a parent thinking their child was taken advantage of and making an issue of it.
I know that in business you would have to pay minimum wage and have insurance. Is there something I am missing when it comes to a club?

1.Voluteers are not covered under workers comp. Volunteer groups generally have an accidental injury policy that covers them, check and make sure they do prior to the next test/trail. I have several on the books and they are fairly cheap ($500.00).
2.Independent contractors are included under club workers comp, Unless they provide a certificate of coverage which club would keep on file.
3.You are correct on min wage but not an employment attorney
4.W/C carriers will not be concerned about hourly wages only making sure audit is correct for total payroll.
5. You cannot sign a release to not hold someone harmless, biggest fallicy ever dreamed up by folks to get around doing it right.
6. General Liability only covers neglegence on the clubs part, not physical damage to any owned club equipment but would if a club member threw a duck through a windshield, hit someone with a duck, ect.
Landowners always need to be added as "Additional Insured" on certificate.

 

[Scott Parker]

You could just hire illegals if something happens to them their not going to say anything and you can pay them what ever you want.

 

[Russ]

1.Voluteers are not covered under workers comp. Volunteer groups generally have an accidental injury policy that covers them, check and make sure they do prior to the next test/trail. I have several on the books and they are fairly cheap ($500.00).
2.Independent contractors are included under club workers comp, Unless they provide a certificate of coverage which club would keep on file.
3.You are correct on min wage but not an employment attorney
4.W/C carriers will not be concerned about hourly wages only making sure audit is correct for total payroll.
5. You cannot sign a release to not hold someone harmless, biggest fallicy ever dreamed up by folks to get around doing it right.
6. General Liability only covers neglegence on the clubs part, not physical damage to any owned club equipment but would if a club member threw a duck through a windshield, hit someone with a duck, ect.
Landowners always need to be added as "Additional Insured" on certificate.

#1 Volunteers may be included on workers comp, at least in Calif. They must post their hours and will be charged at audit for the payroll that would be customary for the type of work. However, there is no legal obligation to do so.

#5 There is very established case law in California that upholds hold harmless for participants. The Calif. Supreme court and appeals courts have ruled against participants (and/or their survivors) that have signed such documents numerous times. In fact, last week an appeals court ruled last week that a participant that neglected to sign a hold harmless was still bound by it because he knew he needed to sign it to legitimately participate.

It is an old wives tale to say they do not hold up.

Russ

 

[Thomas D]

The person themselves (signer of the liability waiver) might be barred from filing suit, but members of his/her family who didn't sign the liability waiver could still have a case.

 

[Rick_C]

Whats it gonna be when Obama care kicks in............

More expensive....

Seriously, a good topic that I had not thought of before. Especially the minimum wage requirement. In my experience the Dept of Labor leans heavily towards the employee in wage related issues so this is definitely something for clubs to consider when hiring bird boys.

 

[jerod]

You could just hire illegals if something happens to them their not going to say anything and you can pay them what ever you want.

Yeah but then you still need someone in the blind to tell them what to do. Yell guns up and they give a more confused look than the dogs.....

 

[Raymond Little]

#1 Volunteers may be included on workers comp, at least in Calif. They must post their hours and will be charged at audit for the payroll that would be customary for the type of work. However, there is no legal obligation to do so.

#5 There is very established case law in California that upholds hold harmless for participants. The Calif. Supreme court and appeals courts have ruled against participants (and/or their survivors) that have signed such documents numerous times. In fact, last week an appeals court ruled last week that a participant that neglected to sign a hold harmless was still bound by it because he knew he needed to sign it to legitimately participate.

It is an old wives tale to say they do not hold up.

Russ

You will not get liability coverage if you accept hold harmless agreements from subcontractors. Why would anyone cover a sub without compensation?
Outside the land of fruits and nuts you will have a hard time making hold harmless agreements stick when it comes to participants in hunt test and field trials. Ya pays yer money and yamtakes yer chances.

 

[Russ]

The person themselves (signer of the liability waiver) might be barred from filing suit, but members of his/her family who didn't sign the liability waiver could still have a case.

Look up Saenz V Whitewater Voyages in the Calif Supreme Court. Saenz died in an accident in a raft piloted by a Whitewater employee. The raft capsized in the rapids. The Supreme Court ruled that the hold harmless document signed by Saenz waived the rights of his survivors.

-Russ

 

[Russ]

You will not get liability coverage if you accept hold harmless agreements from subcontractors. Why would anyone cover a sub without compensation?
Outside the land of fruits and nuts you will have a hard time making hold harmless agreements stick when it comes to participants in hunt test and field trials. Ya pays yer money and yamtakes yer chances.

Where did subcontractors come into the conversation? I am confused.

 

[Thomas D]

It's Florida the OP was asking about.
That 21 yr old California case was about more than just a waiver. It had an indemnification clause in it.