I have just started running the mini t. Today I sent him back about 12-14 times and only whistle stopped him twice. After the second whistle stop he was lightly jogging out to the back pile. I did plenty of free sends between the two whistles. Is this a common problem in mini t?
Losing momentum to the back pile
logy
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
I have just started running the mini t. Today I sent him back about 12-14 times and only whistle stopped him twice. After the second whistle stop he was lightly jogging out to the back pile. I did plenty of free sends between the two whistles. Is this a common problem in mini t?
Joined
·
7,788 Posts
Need lots more information. What type of retriever, which training program? What do you mean by mini T? I know what it means in the Lardy program but is this what you mean? If so, how did he do on FTP, and establishing T baseline? No, this is not common.
Joined
·
2,869 Posts
Not every dog hauls but on pile work or even yard work. U could shorten and simplify
Joined
·
8,593 Posts
Could he have just gotten tired?
Did you ever run to the back pile 12 - 14 times with zero stops? Did he tire and slow down?
Joined
·
3,449 Posts
Depending on the distance and weather, might be overdoing it. Might also add a couple of birds to the pile to add a bit of excitment.
Joined
·
8,593 Posts
I think there's not enough information to suggest that pressure (or more pressure) is the answer.
Joined
·
5,252 Posts
Several good replys already. More information will definitely help.
Did you read confusion in the dog, maybe injury, maybe tired???
I've had a couple of dogs that hated the TT. When doing pile work with one of these dogs I was doing nothing but pile work, and then ftp every evening after work. I started running marks about every other day and his attitude on the yard drills realy improved. Could be your pup just needs more balance in his work.
I would not force until the dog has good momentum without force.
Did you read confusion in the dog, maybe injury, maybe tired???
I've had a couple of dogs that hated the TT. When doing pile work with one of these dogs I was doing nothing but pile work, and then ftp every evening after work. I started running marks about every other day and his attitude on the yard drills realy improved. Could be your pup just needs more balance in his work.
I would not force until the dog has good momentum without force.
Thanks for all the comments so far.
Max is a boykin spaniel and I am following fowl dawgs. The mini T I have set up is 20 yards from where I stand to the back pile, the over piles are set up 15 yards on each side of the line and they intersect 10 yards deep. Does that make sense?
I messed up FTP ... I was doing way to many sends in each session. I drilled it to boredom. The lesson has been learned.
I got max running to the pile by putting some birds out in back pile, doing very few sends, and lots of excitement. Max runs very hard on his marks, but I was never able to get that speed on sending him back.
I'm only in my second day of running mini T and I am still seeing a little confusion on his part. Which is to be expected, but what concerned me was that he started walking to the back pile like he did durning FTP.
I had a feeling I did not include enough information in the first post. Sorry.
Max is a boykin spaniel and I am following fowl dawgs. The mini T I have set up is 20 yards from where I stand to the back pile, the over piles are set up 15 yards on each side of the line and they intersect 10 yards deep. Does that make sense?
I messed up FTP ... I was doing way to many sends in each session. I drilled it to boredom. The lesson has been learned.
I got max running to the pile by putting some birds out in back pile, doing very few sends, and lots of excitement. Max runs very hard on his marks, but I was never able to get that speed on sending him back.
I'm only in my second day of running mini T and I am still seeing a little confusion on his part. Which is to be expected, but what concerned me was that he started walking to the back pile like he did durning FTP.
I am sure he got a little tired, but not to the point where he was so worn out he needed to walk.
The back pile is only 20 yards away. Also, 15 minutes later I did 4 marks with him and he ran the whole time.
Joined
·
5,856 Posts
I still think it was too many sends. Just send enough to make your point and then a little bit more and that's it. It depends on the dog but I've trained a few boykins and they really don't like to be drilled hard.
Of course he'll run out after his mark like banshee. Beats the heck out of running to a pile.
Angie
Joined
·
7,788 Posts
I have trained a few spaniels but only as gun dogs and not teaching to handle. So maybe Alec or Paul can kick in here.
It doesn't sound like a dozen sends at 20 yds is overdoing it.
It doesn't sound like a dozen sends at 20 yds is overdoing it.
I would say he is confused (2nd day of this). The past month I have learned so much more about balancing training. After every session I will try and throw some marks for him with BIRDS.
Joined
·
1,939 Posts
I agree with Angie...way too many sends for a boykin spaniel just starting out...you need more dogs to work with to give the LBD some rest (LOL)I still think it was too many sends. Just send enough to make your point and then a little bit more and that's it. It depends on the dog but I've trained a few boykins and they really don't like to be drilled hard.
Of course he'll run out after his mark like banshee. Beats the heck out of running to a pile.
Angie
Could you give me a example of how you would run mini T with max?I still think it was too many sends. Just send enough to make your point and then a little bit more and that's it. It depends on the dog but I've trained a few boykins and they really don't like to be drilled hard.
Of course he'll run out after his mark like banshee. Beats the heck out of running to a pile.
Angie
Joined
·
187 Posts
If you are reading that its not a force issue it could be to many sends and he just got tired or bored. Try throwing him a fun bumper off to the side during the drill. Mix it up. Sometimes giving that HEY HEY builds back up his attitude towards the drill. In my opinion you are sending him an awful lot. Just read the dog and you'll be fine. Good luck brother.
Joined
·
146 Posts
First of all, I want to say that I have never worked with a Boykin spaniel. So, it’s entirely possible that there is some different characteristic in this breed, that you have to address. But I will tell you what
my thoughts would be, if I were seeing this with a Lab, Golden or Chesapeake.
1) Looks like a “soft” dog. This is not a bad thing, just understand that this animal, in a new venue, immediately became concerned about making a mistake and possibly receiving pressure.
2) Generally, there is a lack of confidence and momentum on the lining. A “normal” ratio of lining to the back pile vs. stopping and taking a cast is 4 or 5 to 1. That ratio usually maintains momentum. So something in this dog’s mind or genetics is a bit different.
3) In your description of prior training, you mentioned that you did FTP to the point of boredom. It may be that too much pressure was applied and you saw the results of that, not just boredom. FTP utilizes direct pressure (vs indirect pressure). There is always a risk with direct pressure that if it's overdone, the dog will eventually begin to question if they are really doing what is required to avoid/turn off the pressure. A little bit used wisely is the way to go.
4) I would not force on back on the T or TT in this situation. There is a school of thought that says the speed/style you reinforce, is the speed/style you will ingrain. Also, if #3 is correct, more pressure now, in this setting, would be bad. Also, this is somewhat new to the dog. We would not
be justified in using force for something new, we are teaching, showing and repeating.
5) I would expect more style/speed by putting birds on the pile, and this reinforces my guess that #3 is correct.
6) So, what to do,, use birds on the back pile always. Minimize the repetitions on the T and TT, do the drill on successive days, but keep each day’s session short. With birds on the back pile, send 2 or 3 times, do a stop and over. 3 or 4 more times, and another stop and over. Then 2 times all the way and quit. Keep in mind that the end goal is to teach the dog to handle on blinds, not to do the drills.
7) It will probably take more calendar time with this dog given what you’re seeing and where you’re at, but you don’t want to sacrifice any more style to get the job done.
8) Maybe think about starting to teach pattern/permanent blinds sooner. You don’t use pressure in the teaching, and this generally helps momentum. Another approach is what some call the Chinese drill. No e-collar pressure on this, use “no” and show/help handle the dog as required. At this point going
forward, you need to make the dog understand that nothing bad will happen if he gets stopped, verbally corrected, and shown what you want.
You should see a gradual improvement in momentum style and speed with this approach. When he looks tight, worried and is not having fun, believe your eyes and help/teach/simplify and you'll both have more fun.
9) Having said all that, there are some absolutes where pressure is still mandatory and should be used - no gos on these types of drills is one example.
my thoughts would be, if I were seeing this with a Lab, Golden or Chesapeake.
1) Looks like a “soft” dog. This is not a bad thing, just understand that this animal, in a new venue, immediately became concerned about making a mistake and possibly receiving pressure.
2) Generally, there is a lack of confidence and momentum on the lining. A “normal” ratio of lining to the back pile vs. stopping and taking a cast is 4 or 5 to 1. That ratio usually maintains momentum. So something in this dog’s mind or genetics is a bit different.
3) In your description of prior training, you mentioned that you did FTP to the point of boredom. It may be that too much pressure was applied and you saw the results of that, not just boredom. FTP utilizes direct pressure (vs indirect pressure). There is always a risk with direct pressure that if it's overdone, the dog will eventually begin to question if they are really doing what is required to avoid/turn off the pressure. A little bit used wisely is the way to go.
4) I would not force on back on the T or TT in this situation. There is a school of thought that says the speed/style you reinforce, is the speed/style you will ingrain. Also, if #3 is correct, more pressure now, in this setting, would be bad. Also, this is somewhat new to the dog. We would not
be justified in using force for something new, we are teaching, showing and repeating.
5) I would expect more style/speed by putting birds on the pile, and this reinforces my guess that #3 is correct.
6) So, what to do,, use birds on the back pile always. Minimize the repetitions on the T and TT, do the drill on successive days, but keep each day’s session short. With birds on the back pile, send 2 or 3 times, do a stop and over. 3 or 4 more times, and another stop and over. Then 2 times all the way and quit. Keep in mind that the end goal is to teach the dog to handle on blinds, not to do the drills.
7) It will probably take more calendar time with this dog given what you’re seeing and where you’re at, but you don’t want to sacrifice any more style to get the job done.
8) Maybe think about starting to teach pattern/permanent blinds sooner. You don’t use pressure in the teaching, and this generally helps momentum. Another approach is what some call the Chinese drill. No e-collar pressure on this, use “no” and show/help handle the dog as required. At this point going
forward, you need to make the dog understand that nothing bad will happen if he gets stopped, verbally corrected, and shown what you want.
You should see a gradual improvement in momentum style and speed with this approach. When he looks tight, worried and is not having fun, believe your eyes and help/teach/simplify and you'll both have more fun.
9) Having said all that, there are some absolutes where pressure is still mandatory and should be used - no gos on these types of drills is one example.
Joined
·
6,959 Posts
I was thinking the same thing. Tired or maybe bored.
I will say listen to Angie B. She had my Boykin for 3 months and did his FF, CC and FTP. And boy does my little guy go, he is almost coming out of his skin waiting for me to say "back". Now I am using the Fowl Dawgs system and Im finishing up sit to pile as we speak. I should start the mini T next week. But I noticed when I first started reviewing his FTP that if I sent him too many times I would start getting some no goes or popping after too many sends. I cut it back to 15 max and he is almost flawless now. Also if you notice in the Fowl Dawgs DVD Rick give the dogs some fun bumbers in between the pile work to break up the monotony of the drills.
Joined
·
462 Posts
I'm no expert, but if you have the back pile only 25 yards out, how far out are the side piles?
The reason I ask is because if the side piles are somewhere in the middle of that, that whole area is probably the area where he's going to be most likely to be confused.
For example, if you put the back pile at 50 yards, or 100 yards, once he knows he's past the area you might stop him at, he might go faster - so you could read that he's just going slow the whole way because he doesn't want to do it or whatever as opposed to he's unsure. At 25 yards, I'd think he's probably just getting confident that back was the right decision when he's slowing up for the bumper. I'm not suggesting putting the back pile back that far for your dog - someone else might be able to give you a better answer on that, just that a longer back pile might let you read the dog better.
The reason I ask is because if the side piles are somewhere in the middle of that, that whole area is probably the area where he's going to be most likely to be confused.
For example, if you put the back pile at 50 yards, or 100 yards, once he knows he's past the area you might stop him at, he might go faster - so you could read that he's just going slow the whole way because he doesn't want to do it or whatever as opposed to he's unsure. At 25 yards, I'd think he's probably just getting confident that back was the right decision when he's slowing up for the bumper. I'm not suggesting putting the back pile back that far for your dog - someone else might be able to give you a better answer on that, just that a longer back pile might let you read the dog better.
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
-
?
