Given that part of the purpose of testing/trialing is to identify the best individuals for breeding purposes, Is it in our best interest not to allow females in heat to perform and be judged. The reproductive capacity of the male to produce offspring is so much greater than the female. In a perfect world a female could produce about 120 offspring (2 litters/yr x 10 puppies x 6 years reproductive life). A male could easily do that in a month. Suppose Lottie came in season the first week of November each year. She certainly would have proven her worth as a retriever, but she wouldn't have been a 3X NFC.
Running Events with Bitches in Season
Noah
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Ted
Someone requested a bitch check after I ran my bitch on the land blind. She checked clean and is not due in for 3 months. If your males acted that way in the 4th it would have been very easy to find which bitch was hot.
Al
Someone requested a bitch check after I ran my bitch on the land blind. She checked clean and is not due in for 3 months. If your males acted that way in the 4th it would have been very easy to find which bitch was hot.
Al
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I experienced a similar thing...last series of a Master, two bitches in the event, I was running one and a well known female Pro who is a Vet was running the other. My bitch checked fine. She refused to let the Club Vet check her bitch as it would have been "unprofessional." She scratched the bitch from the test then went and ran her Senior Dogs.Ted Shih said:
It's sad when folks feel they have to cheat to get ahead.
I didn't file a formal complaint, either.
If Only Regards,
Joe S.
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Breck said:
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I'm sorry, but I still don't get why it's a "no brainer." My obedience self is sitting here thinking several people have a training problem. Talking about not being able to get a dog to honor - what that comes down to is a broken stay. Dog fights? Again, can't be fighting if you're maintaining a heel, sit, down, or fetch, as commanded.
I have both intact males and females. All live in my house. And other than not allowing the one in season unsupervised with the males, I make no concessions. Everyone is expected to follow the rules, behave themselves, work diligently during training. The girls are staked on the "chain gang" along with the guys, and they all sit there quietly waiting their turns. I use the bitches in season to proof my obedience work. An obedience trial where there is also conformation pretty much guarantees your dogs will be working with bitches in season on the grounds, because they're allowed to show in season. At a smaller show where they don't have seperate crating areas, your crated dogs might be set up right next to someone with a bitch in season. You'd be either donating a lot of entry fees or having to limit yourself to obedience only trials (which would really cut down on your competition opportunities) if you didn't expect your dog to perform regardless...
Border collies running sheep dog trials at the Open level are expected to work with bitches in season running. I suspect had we not had the tradition, in the field, of banning the bitches in season, people would have found a way to train for it.
I have both intact males and females. All live in my house. And other than not allowing the one in season unsupervised with the males, I make no concessions. Everyone is expected to follow the rules, behave themselves, work diligently during training. The girls are staked on the "chain gang" along with the guys, and they all sit there quietly waiting their turns. I use the bitches in season to proof my obedience work. An obedience trial where there is also conformation pretty much guarantees your dogs will be working with bitches in season on the grounds, because they're allowed to show in season. At a smaller show where they don't have seperate crating areas, your crated dogs might be set up right next to someone with a bitch in season. You'd be either donating a lot of entry fees or having to limit yourself to obedience only trials (which would really cut down on your competition opportunities) if you didn't expect your dog to perform regardless...
Border collies running sheep dog trials at the Open level are expected to work with bitches in season running. I suspect had we not had the tradition, in the field, of banning the bitches in season, people would have found a way to train for it.
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Great
I now have to train for:
1) Judges who move guns on marking tests
2) Judges who turn the bird boys
3) Handlers who run dogs in heat
Can I train for such things? Sure
Should I have to? I don't think so
No wonder the ranks of FT'ers is shrinking
Who needs this brain damage?
I now have to train for:
1) Judges who move guns on marking tests
2) Judges who turn the bird boys
3) Handlers who run dogs in heat
Can I train for such things? Sure
Should I have to? I don't think so
No wonder the ranks of FT'ers is shrinking
Who needs this brain damage?
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It's good for you. Builds character. Builds character in the dogs, too. :wink:Ted Shih said:
I think you're pretty safe, though, in not having to worry about this one a whole lot.
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hhlabradors said:
You'll forgive me if I don't share the sentiment.
All sorts of BS builds character
That doesn't mean that it is desirable.
Or that it should be approved.
More's the pity that you seem to encourage the proliferation of unnecessary nonsense.
Ted
G
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·bitches in heat
The rule book says, they are not allowed on the test grounds I think we need to enforce the rule with bitch checks.
The rule book says, they are not allowed on the test grounds I think we need to enforce the rule with bitch checks.
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Actually, what I encourage is the training of dogs. A stay command that will hold even with a bitch in season walking, say, on the other side of a road with a car coming, isn't what I consider unnecessary nonsense. It's a distraction, Ted, just like the many others you already train for. If the tests keep getting tougher because the dogs are better and it's harder to weed out who's the best out of a field of excellents, when the trial is already a test of obedience, why not make that obedience part of the standard of excellence?Ted Shih said:
I also encourage a sense of humor and the ability to discuss different points of view without personal attacks. No pity needed, thanks.
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I want my boys to be used to running with bitches in heat in training, but we have more control of them in training situations. At a trial they are trial wise, supercharged, and when you combine bitches in heat with testosterone and prey drive and trying to honor, someone besides the dogs will get hurt. No one wants to run under that situation. I had a dog attacked in a holding blind and I would never want it to happen again.
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I posted this poll because I thought it was an interesting topic and I have always felt an inherent unfainess existed for bitches in the big annual (semi-annual) events (National Open, National Am, Master National, HRC Grand) not being able to participate when they are on top of their game. I know it will never change and I understand why, especially in head to head competition.
Females are half of the equation and their window of opportunity to contribute to the gene pool is so much smaller than that of the male. I think that facet of the discussion has been ignored in lieu of how it affects me and my dogs performance. I don't think it is BS or a No-brainer to at least be discussed. That being said, in our training groups, the females in heat run first (and run well) and the males learn to deal with it. I have run behind 2 females in heat in the last year, an AKC Master and the Fall 04 Grand. My male passed the Master and all 3 series of the Grand before the female in heat was asked to scratch.
Females are half of the equation and their window of opportunity to contribute to the gene pool is so much smaller than that of the male. I think that facet of the discussion has been ignored in lieu of how it affects me and my dogs performance. I don't think it is BS or a No-brainer to at least be discussed. That being said, in our training groups, the females in heat run first (and run well) and the males learn to deal with it. I have run behind 2 females in heat in the last year, an AKC Master and the Fall 04 Grand. My male passed the Master and all 3 series of the Grand before the female in heat was asked to scratch.
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Bitches in season
Quite a few years ago at the trial held in Yuma, Bill Eckett was in the holding blind with a male Lab (last series of the Open). The dog (bitch) running just before Bill left the line and walked by the holding blind. As Bill started to the line, his dog turned, ran in the other direction and disappeared. When they went to find him, the dog was trying to mount the bitch who had just left the line. She was in season and the owner said he had not realized it! Bill, who always stays cool, for once looked a little hot under the collar.
We had one trialer who generally only ran bitches have to have his bitches checked on various occasions. He never seemed to understand they had come into season. What was interesting, he was a gynecologist!
I was in the holding blind at a trial and thought I would never get my male's nose off the ground, he was slathering at the mouth, clicking his teeth, etc. When I went to the line, he kept putting his head down. Luckily, they had a pheasant flier shot from a high ridge which rode out forever (Mitch Patterson judging), and that caught his attention. My male won the trial, and afterwards, some persons wanted to take photos of the dogs who finished---my male and another male which I had and which had earned a Jam, were obnoxious during the photo session----the photographer commented on it. Two days later, the owner of the bitch who got 2nd, and who ran just ahead of me, approached me about breeding my male to his bitch----you got it, she was in season and he had just discovered it!!!
Males dogs act around females in season the same as very randy teen-age boys. Their brains shift position.
Eleanor----I used to compete in obedience and the males at times did have to cope with females in season being on the grounds, but usually the obedience rings were kept at a distance from the show rings, and no bitches in season were allowed to compete in obedience. I did have an experience with one male---he needed this last exercise to finish his UD title and as he was going over the bar jump, he did a u turn in mid-air and started to enter the next ring. Apparently someone in Novice A had a bitch in season, and she just happened to be heeling it by as my dog was taking the jump!
Glenda
Quite a few years ago at the trial held in Yuma, Bill Eckett was in the holding blind with a male Lab (last series of the Open). The dog (bitch) running just before Bill left the line and walked by the holding blind. As Bill started to the line, his dog turned, ran in the other direction and disappeared. When they went to find him, the dog was trying to mount the bitch who had just left the line. She was in season and the owner said he had not realized it! Bill, who always stays cool, for once looked a little hot under the collar.
We had one trialer who generally only ran bitches have to have his bitches checked on various occasions. He never seemed to understand they had come into season. What was interesting, he was a gynecologist!
I was in the holding blind at a trial and thought I would never get my male's nose off the ground, he was slathering at the mouth, clicking his teeth, etc. When I went to the line, he kept putting his head down. Luckily, they had a pheasant flier shot from a high ridge which rode out forever (Mitch Patterson judging), and that caught his attention. My male won the trial, and afterwards, some persons wanted to take photos of the dogs who finished---my male and another male which I had and which had earned a Jam, were obnoxious during the photo session----the photographer commented on it. Two days later, the owner of the bitch who got 2nd, and who ran just ahead of me, approached me about breeding my male to his bitch----you got it, she was in season and he had just discovered it!!!
Males dogs act around females in season the same as very randy teen-age boys. Their brains shift position.
Eleanor----I used to compete in obedience and the males at times did have to cope with females in season being on the grounds, but usually the obedience rings were kept at a distance from the show rings, and no bitches in season were allowed to compete in obedience. I did have an experience with one male---he needed this last exercise to finish his UD title and as he was going over the bar jump, he did a u turn in mid-air and started to enter the next ring. Apparently someone in Novice A had a bitch in season, and she just happened to be heeling it by as my dog was taking the jump!
Glenda
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I saw a cartoon of a blind man being dragged across the street by his seeing eye dog.
The caption read.
OK, Who has the hot bitch :wink:
Run 'em at the end is my vote !
john
The caption read.
OK, Who has the hot bitch :wink:
Run 'em at the end is my vote !
john
G
Guest
·There are only two FC AFC OTCHs (U.S.) in all of the retriever breeds but this limited number has little if anything to do with bitches being in heat. These dogs are titled because of their owners' preference of retriever sport and their professional occupation. You can bet both these dogs (yes, males) earned their OTCH titles with bitches in season on the grounds because obedience trials are more often than not held in conjunction with all-breed conformation trials which allow bitches in season to compete. But maybe I am just missing your point here?KG said:
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Because it's not part of the Rule Book. Because it is a Field Trial, not an obedience test.hhlabradors said:
If you want to change field trials to accomodate your viewpoint, then I recommend you work to implement it.
But, I will fight you tooth and nail all the way.
I want the determinant of which dog walks away with the blue at the end of the Open to be which dog was able to mark the long retired bird and have the courage to make the big swim to dig that bird out, not the dog who was able to ignore the scent of a bitch in heat.
Ted
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