Short bird marking - Secondary vs Ideal selection

Ted Shih · Dec 20, 2008

I don't agree that dogs are programmed to go long ... or better put, I think whether a dog prefers to go long or short depends

For example, if there is a short gun up - flyer or dead - you will find that some dogs will not want to look past that station or drive past that bird.

In the same vein, sometimes the dogs prefer the long bird because it is more attractive. For example, the short bird is a dinky throw, the long bird is a big throw across the horizon with feathers up in the sun. Depending on the conditions, a long dead bird can be more attractive to the dogs than the shorter flier.

It is one thing to overrun the short retired bird on the way to a long unretired bird.

It is another thing to overrun the short retired bird on the way to the long retired bird.

There are so many different variables that I don't know how valid any generalizations are here.

I never met the man, but I have heard plenty of Rex Carr's students tell me that even though he worked on secondary selection in training that when he was at a trial, if there was an attractive bird that the dogs wanted that was long, he would tell his students to let the dogs take that bird.

JusticeDog · Dec 20, 2008

Doug Main said:
Thinking back this fall, on the tests that had a tough short retired bird tight in front of a long bird. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of dogs that successfully picked up that short retired bird after running by it and picking up the long bird first.

It just seems that if the dog ran by the short retired once that it was more likely to run by it a 2nd time. Now most of the dogs running were also trained to secondarily select the bird. So maybe that explains it.

I think this is mostly true. Having had the priviledge to run Dave's dogs at his seminars, they have been trained to run by that short gun. It was interesting to watch his dogs, compared to running my own dogs on the same test. The responses were amazing depending on whether the dog was trained to secondary select, or ideally select.

However, I have a dog or two that LOVES to run long, and if I attempt to secondary select, I can pretty much guarantee that I will be flipped the dew claw, and wind up with a mess. However, leaving the dog to run long, the dog has no issue with remembering teh short retired, or being talked into it.... listening to Dave talk, I now look at the birds int eh field as: THe flyer is filet mignon, the next bird is pot roast, and then there is hamburger...

The last trial ran, my female didn't bother to even watch the short go bird (it was dead)- didn't even turn her head, but was quivering with excitement over the two long birds... it's about knowing your dog, and knowing how they will respond at a trial.... something I'm still trying to figure out on a given weekend.

moscowitz · Dec 20, 2008

I just attended the Rorem Seminar in Florida as observer. I hope everyone trains on secondary selection. I'm training on ideal selection.

A quote "don't be prisoners of bad habits."

I would like to take that one step further, Don't be prisoners of habit.

Paul Young - you would love the handling Seminar. It is all about reading dogs.
for example I've changed my outlook on the old saying my dog lied to me.

Rorem - Dogs don't lie you read your dog wrong.
Paul I owe you so I will discuss the seminar when I see you. Best seminar I have ever attended and plan to attend again next year.

Bruce MacPherson · Dec 20, 2008

Doug Main said:
Who determines the order of pickup the dog or the handler?

Apparently, at least in the case of the winner of this years National Open, the dog.

Doug Main · Dec 20, 2008

Is "ideal selection" really just no selection at all? Just let the dog pick up whatever bird it wants in whatever order it wants?

moscowitz · Dec 20, 2008

Absolutely Not. It is used in training.

Attend the seminar.

Angie B · Dec 20, 2008

I do train secondary selection almost 98% of the time. A short retired thrown second will be picked up second in training since I train secondary selection. I think it also makes a dog more flexible and with time more relaxed with difficult concepts. I could pick it up last in training since in the majority of cases it could be easier, but that's not my goal in training.

At a trial I will let the dog get it last. Especially if the other dogs aren't getting it second...

Angie

john fallon · Dec 20, 2008

Chris Atkinson said:
I'm still sitting back to take it in. I am sincerely interested in the thoughts that the successful, or about to be so, RTF folks have.

John Fallon, please, sincerely, if you have something to contribute, please lay it out in some detail. I believe you likely have some knowledge to share and I personally am not sharp enough to dig it out of the brief rhetoricals....

Thanks! Chris

Chris,

I am glad you asked .

With my question to Angie about her "Always" advice.........
I was questioning her about advising people such as yourself on breaking the most basic tenants of dog training. The subject at hand is a prime example of this.

As to Long Long Short. I do not often train on it but do often train on the short retired component in the more conventional manner, but I would atempt to go long twice before short at a trial, if, in my estimation, at that point in time, with that dog, in the conditions at hand .................. it would afford us the best chance for success.
I feel that in an ongoing attempt to maintain balance,this is the best course for my dogs and... for most others for that matter

You see Chris , contrary to Angie's belief as demonstrated by her answer to my question, there are no absolutes in dog training.
I am sure that if you ask Dave (The only one that seems to be consistently training on this type of selection) ,Or Mike, or Danny, or Al, Or ED, or Allen, or...... rather than Angie they will tell you the same thing.

John

Granddaddy · Dec 20, 2008

Doug Main said:
Thinking back this fall, on the tests that had a tough short retired bird tight in front of a long bird. I think I can count on 1 hand the number of dogs that successfully picked up that short retired bird after running by it and picking up the long bird first.

It just seems that if the dog ran by the short retired once that it was more likely to run by it a 2nd time. Now most of the dogs running were also trained to secondarily select the bird. So maybe that explains it.

This would be my concern as well.

Also, while we debate the efficacy of training two long before a short retired, it seems at least a part of the answer would depend upon the entire volume of the training process used. In other words if this particular "concept" is contrary to the consistency of logic used in your training process, it's merits under Rorem's system might be of little benefit, even detrimental under a different system.

Chris Atkinson · Dec 20, 2008

john fallon said:
Chris,

I am glad you asked .

With my question to Angie about her "Always" advice.........
I was questioning her about advising people such as yourself on breaking the most basic tenants of dog training. The subject at hand is a prime example of this.

As to Long Long Short. I do not often train on it but do often train on the short retired component in the more conventional manner, but I would atempt to go long twice before short at a trial, if, in my estimation, at that point in time, with that dog, in the conditions at hand .................. it would afford us the best chance for success.
I feel that in an ongoing attempt to maintain balance,this is the best course for my dogs and... for most others for that matter

You see Chris , contrary to Angie's belief as demonstrated by her answer to my question, there are no absolutes in dog training.
I am sure that if you ask Dave (The only one that seems to be consistently training on this type of selection) ,Or Mike, or Danny, or Al, Or ED, or Allen, or...... rather than Angie they will tell you the same thing.

John

I love it John! Sincerely, THANK YOU!

I also agree about the "always" and "never" absolutes. Dennis Voigt used a quite recently that I'll have to try and find. It started off "Never say "always""... But then it referenced to avoid saying "never" as well.

Have a great weekend.

Chris

cakaiser · Dec 20, 2008

Long bird behind momma-poppa, out or not, go bird off to side. Momma retires into poppa. Pick up go bird, Then poppa. Now what?

Most, and I would never say always, but most times you are going to work pretty hard to pull out that momma bird, and try not to let them get the long gun.

Because it is so tight, many dogs will lose memory, and think they have picked up that bird, if they go long first. So, in that case, you might really want to get the bird you want, not the one the dog wants.

Do think it can be which dog, some are ok going back where they have just been, others not. But, maybe that is function of not so great training, although we have had both types, trained essentially the same.

Angie B · Dec 20, 2008

What if a dog was trained with "primary" selection? Would you feel they would have a easier time digging out that short retired?

Angie

cakaiser · Dec 20, 2008

Well, most of us don't primary select, but yes, that would be a cool way to beat the test if you thought you could get away with it. Poppa, momma, then long birds.

But, what if, go bird flyer.......... tough

Angie B · Dec 20, 2008

cakaiser said:
Well, most of us don't primary select, but yes, that would be a cool way to beat the test if you thought you could get away with it. Poppa, momma, then long birds.

But, what if, go bird flyer.......... tough

No kidding,,,, but that is how many train north of the border. Or at least that was the way they trained. It's been a while since I've talked or train with them.

Angie

cakaiser · Dec 20, 2008

North of the border = no flyers. Huge difference.

RetrieversONLINE · Dec 20, 2008

From North of the Border:
SO much snow to shovel that I missed the start of this discussion-but here’s my thoughts.

History of Selection (in brief)
In the good old days “selection” meant ‘sending your dog on the first retrieve for a bird other than the last bird down’ (go-bird). The test that really got this idea going was the indent in which you had a short retired in the middle and the flyer last bird down longer on the outside. This has been called the McAssey Test (John McAssey). This kind of selection became known as Primary selection and Rex Carr was one of its early proponents.
Primary selection has always been controversial because of the difficulty of pulling off flyers. Dogs reliable in training where not always reliable at trials (hmm –no kidding!) Often a lot of pressure was used. Interestingly in Canada, where all birds were dead, Primary selection was much easier and more often seen.

Secondary selection occurred when the handler selected which bird was picked up second. Usually, this meant the flyer was picked up first as a go-bird and then the next shortest bird was picked up. Again this was often that short retired bird with a longer one to go and after a longer one. Because this pattern was the most common, it became convention to call Secondary Selection, “picking up the short bird second”. In reality, it is secondary selection occurs when the handler selects which bird is retrieved second. One can even talk about tertiary selection when the handler selects which bird is third (as might be needed in a quad).

Eventually, Rex Carr abandoned primary selection because dogs AND handlers were unreliable at doing it. It wasn’t reasonable to pursue with all dogs. Later, he pursued picking up the short bird last. Dave Rorem trained extensively with Rex in the early 90’s when Rex preached this approach. Dave adopted Rex’s philosophy and later coined the term “Ideal Selection” which today he defines as “getting any bird at any time”. Of course, because Rorem has pursued picking up the short bird last after one or two longer birds, now some people think Ideal selection is short bird last (just as some thing secondary is always short bird second).

Why do dogs over-run short?
1. We train so much on this in formative years-Short-long ad nauseum in Derby-teach that punch bird, get that long retired-force back-drive long!
2. Experienced dogs love flyers-ever notice short birds second as flyers are relatively easy? (Hint-great way to train short retireds). Dogs know when short birds are dead-they may be less certain that long bird was dead. Rex said to me: He wanted that long bird-he was hoping it was a flyer!” Note: Canadian dogs often primary select to short birds on their own when never exposed to flyers.
3. Visible birds are easier to remember than retired- a long visible is more attracting than a short retired-duh!
4. Dogs that have run long naturally are comfortable running long again because they have just been successful doing that.

What do I do?

For Chris: I say “Never says Always but Never say Never!”

I train over and over on being able to take a short bird after a longer bird. In day to day training this is usually second for clarity and simplicity although it could be done second, third or 4th. Is this secondary-yes! I am always selecting which bird is second in training. Is it tertiary –sometimes it is also. Is it ideal- yes because I’m deciding which bird next. I occasionally train on Primary for control reasons. Enough that I could do it in some trial situations.

In a trial, I “usually” go with my dog’s strengths- what is he best at? Because of my training, I often feel comfortable digging out that short retired second but not “always”. PS. I have both won and lost a National in the 10th by going contrary to my training. Four times the decision has been which bird to take 3rd when there was a middle and a long retired left.
There is always both Science and Art to handling! Knowing when to go with the dog and when to not go with the dog is the Art!

Cheers

ErinsEdge · Dec 20, 2008

I train secondary but I have had a dog that liked to take the short retired out first in a trial setting. All I had to do is say easy and his head locked on the short bird or he just did it himself, and over a flyer. Unfortunately I had this dog early in my career and he was handicapped by my lack of handling skills on blinds.

Evan · Dec 20, 2008

john fallon said:
Always ?????

john

How the late Rex Carr hated that word! It ranked right up there with "never".

Evan

Howard N · Dec 20, 2008

I seldom see quads. I train hard on secondary, selection digging the short retired out from in front of a long memory bird.

When you say, "Easy," for the older dogs they understand it and lock in on the short retired just like Nancy said.

In the excitement of a trial I've had them come back from the go bird and look out at the long bird. I've said easy and had them lock in on the short bird. We haven't always pulled it out but I've felt the dogs knew which one I wanted next when I've sent them. We've pulled it out in trials often enough to keep training on secondary selection.

I thought in the Rorem/Carr tapes Rorem was suggesting what he's now calling ideal selection for just some high roller type dogs. Now, he's saying use it for all dogs? Does he have a step by step method of training for it?

Evan · Dec 20, 2008

RetrieversONLINE said:
Dave adopted Rex’s philosophy and later coined the term “Ideal Selection” which today he defines as “getting any bird at any time”. Of course, because Rorem has pursued picking up the short bird last after one or two longer birds, now some people think Ideal selection is short bird last (just as some thing secondary is always short bird second).

Cheers

Dennis,

I didn't get a clear perspective on Dave's "Ideal selection" principle, either, but rather just came away with the idea that he pretty much sent for the go bird (whether long or short) and let the dog indicate which he got next. Did you get that sort of impression?

Evan

Short bird marking - Secondary vs Ideal selection

Ted Shih

JusticeDog

moscowitz

Bruce MacPherson

Doug Main

moscowitz

Angie B

john fallon

Granddaddy

Chris Atkinson

cakaiser

Angie B

cakaiser

Angie B

cakaiser

RetrieversONLINE

ErinsEdge

Evan

Howard N

Evan

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