I guess it depends on the goals for your dog, and you've asked a question that all newbies seem to ask - they question the purpose of the swim by. If you are eventually going to strive to play the field trial game, you will want the more advanced handling skills. There is nothing in a water T that teaches your dog to "swim by" their handler. It ensures a dog that is comfortable handling in the water, if done properly. Make it a great learning experience, and use it as a building block to becoming a great team with your dog.

I am attaching a link to an article written by Dennis Voigt regarding swim by. Dennis explains the philosophy behind the swim by more artfully than I can....

http://www.gundogsonline.com/Article/the-swim-by-retriever-training-Page1.htm

 

Thanks for the article! Great!

 

Two words, more water!

 

Jen
I have this video of my dog, I ususally dont post videos (Im too embarassed) since Im relatively new to the game. I never taught a SB before, in this video We were nearing the end of our SB. I went to a couple of other ponds at the place I use for training to proof it. I used Lardys TRT and the article that Susan posted. If I remember correctly at the end i would cast one direction to the pile and he would auto cast past me and exit the other end without me having to direct him and at time I figured he had it down so we moved on. SB was cool to see all the previous training come together.

Here it goes

 

Jen,

Here ia a very good thread on SB. Willie does an awesome job in his videos.

http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?93700-Swim-by-videos&highlight=swimby

 

The purpose of doing it vs t or 3 leg pattern is to gain better control of the dog in the water ...simple obedience....you don't need an exact pond to teach the swim-by portion....Steve S

 

Seek water.

/Paul

 

You teach swim by
1. As a component of compliance (see force fetch)
2. As a component of handling

But, I think mostly to teach a dog that if it is undecided between dirt and water, water is the superior choice

 

Thanks to all - Not sure how I missed that recent thread! Was convinced it hadn't been discussed in a while. Very helpful!!

And more helpful comments here. I have the Lardy DVDs and articles, but no where does he explain the logic of the swimming-by portion vs water T.

Got sunshine today and warmish temps, so we'll give it a try.

 

.....Got sunshine today and warmish temps, so we'll give it a try.

you know it's not a one day drill, right?

 

Usually there is en element of pressure involved as well. That teaches them to handle pressure around the water Jen. Some might separate that and call it "water force" but it's all part of a cohesive progressing in most programs I've seen.

 

Swim-By
If you have done pile work in concert with Mini-T on land including these lessons (Go-Line-Cast, Fetch-Stop-Come), (Stop to Pile, Cast to new direction, attrition & indirect pressure) and then did Double-T including these lessons (more distance to mini-t lessons, different lines & casts and Discipline Casting) than Swim By continues with the following lessons (Go-Line-Cast, Fetch-Stop-Come on Water), (Get in Water, Stay in the Water and Re-Enter Water, all with Lining and then with Casting), then Tread Water, Stop (use rope) and then Disciplined Casting.
For Swim-By it may not be possible to complete the classic lessons using positive only methods. Without using force you may need to spend 2 or more weeks on swim-by and you'll probably still have holes that won't reveal themselves till later down the road when the going gets tough and dog won't comply.

 

Do you feel, that if your pile work, T and TT was REALLY solid, that swimby is that much of a big deal to complete easily?
That is with a dog that has had a very good understanding of pressure/force?
Gooser

 

When water conflicts with land, land will win every time without a trained response. Most of the land drills are very easily understood, and everyone for the most part can walk on land, chew gum and walk well? Water is a very different concept for dogs to grasp , a dog can run much faster then it can swim. The swim-by is a water drill. I have had dogs that never completed the swim-by, and had to go to creative drills. I know Mike has too. Quick learners are the most difficult, they learn the concept, sometimes in a day or so, pressure is applied and theydon't know how to get out of the pressure. Water comes in conflict with land and some trainers start digging a hole. If you are not a force trainer, or you don't use a e- collar I think you probably have to be very creative in your approach to the swim-by. Most experienced trainers, pros included, sometimes do the swim-by with disciplined casting the entire competitive life Of the dog. I know I use it many times over the years with some dogs. You won't see some of this discussed in DVD's or reading material you learn it through experience. Many new trainers try to think like dogs, use human reasoning, to find out the why's of the dogs not responding to training. Paraphrase Mike Lardy, I don't why this works, but it works and I am not training lab rats or ringing bells so really doesn't matter , it works. Perhaps the OP answered her own question, water Tee or Swim-by, I don't train with pressure?

 

Most experienced trainers, pros included, sometimes do the swim-by with disciplined casting the entire competitive life Of the dog. I know I use it many times over the years with some dogs.

I cannot think of a dog that I have had over the years, that the swim by has not been used through out its career. For example, big water set up. Hard cross wind. Dog does not fight the wind, but attempts to beach early (and perhaps succeeds in doing so, despite correction). On return, we will often do swim by. To reinforce what a six year old FC already knows - you need to stay in the water. I have seen older dogs (and owned one) that were not trained in swim by and I always believed it hampered our efforts to reinforce the proper water attitude. Just like I believe that stick fetch and the sling shot should be part of an All Age Dog's force fetch, I believe that swim by must be a part of an All Age Dog's water training.

 

I use it a lot to keep the dogs from swimming through the decoys and draging them back

 

For Ken and Breck and Chris,

We have concluded TT with great success and are now ready to move onto swim-by. As stated earlier, I have studied the Mike Lardy DVDs and articles more than once and yes, he does discuss swim-by at length, but not the "logic" behind teaching the By vs just teaching a water version of T, except to say it helps with the return and water honesty. I guess that's enough. Never questioned that it's a good idea, just wanted some rationale on how to think of it in my own brain.

Chris, I am following the Lardy sequence of teaching skills and drills and marking, just not using compulsion training methods. My dog is doing very well with it, so far. My "different way" is to use marker training to teach obedience, heel positions and holding blind and line manners. Also, I don't use force fetch or CC, force to pile or indirect pressure so I guess that's "different".

Ken, it's not a one day drill, but you do have to start on day 1! And it helps if the weather is nice...which it finally is in my neck of the woods.

Thanks for everyone's help - I promise to make better use of the search function.

 

Another important concept that comes into play , probably for the 1st time, is handling the dog with a bumper in its mouth versus handling to the bumper, it helps to try it in your land T sessions.
After completion of the swim by put the concept to work, on a return mark, dog decides to take a shortcut to land, using the the same cues he learned in swim by ( no! Over ) and put the dog back on the correct line and exaggerate the line. This will prove very valuable as the dog progresses

 

Well, maybe. I think you may need to be creative to get dog into a situation where he wants to fight you so you have a chance to light him up.

 

Finally, a use for that Google Dictionary button thingie.

 

In the olden days the sling shot was one of the training tools of choice. Usually sand was placed in the pouch and it was called a two person fetching drill. The handler at heel/sit, the other helper would stand behind the dog , the snap of the slingshot along with sand was shot by the helper, with the fetch command given. A stick could be used or a quirt by the helper, fetch command given. Later marbles, small rocks, would be used with a little more distance for whistle sits. Many carried a small slingshot as they did the death march to the line at a trial, just the snap of the rubber was enough to get the dogs attention. Now this was only 15 to 20 years ago so not ancient history.

The slingshot in proper hands is very accurate. I was present when a very fine dog had his eye put out with a marble and cured from even the thought of using a slingshot other then perhaps the pouch full of sand with force fetch. Have't used one in years. This was a old Rex Carr technique with the two person drill with force fetch. Perhaps this was what Ted was making reference?

 

The slingshot in proper hands is very accurate. I was present when a very fine dog had his eye put out with a marble and cured from even the thought of using a slingshot other then perhaps the pouch full of sand with force fetch. Have't used one in years. This was a old Rex Carr technique with the two person drill with force fetch. Perhaps this was what Ted was making reference?

Yes. I am talking about short distance, force to pile with slingshot. I think that the collar can be over used. I like stick for enforcing sit. And - in the right situation - like slingshot for enforcing back. I think it works. If others don't want to use it, that's their choice.

 

I have had a few meat heads I mean recalcitrant dogs I have trained. Had to look that one up Susan and Ed , of course didn't major in English or Written Communication. I will have to remember when I train my next recalcitrant (meathead)
Dog. Ha, ha.

 

I was told you are supposed to use Walnuts Ted.

 

I was told you are supposed to use Walnuts Ted.

What happens if you have no nuts Happy?

 

I think even if you don't run test, having your dog go through swim-by is a fantastic drill to help rover and you when you need to get rover to a downed duck in water that rover didn't see. In other words, your water blinds hopefully become easier (no excuse though for not doing water blind drills too).