Do the surgery

I have had 5 ACL repairs done on 3 dogs

It doesn't get better with time

If the dog blows the knee, there is 60% chance of meniscus injury with corresponding issues with arthritis. If you do the repair before dog blows the knee, I think there is a 15% chance of menicus injury

I retired one of my dogs at age 6 because he had partial tear. Decided to not invest in surgery, because he was retired. Went on walk. He blew knee. Should have just done it off the bat

 

Ligaments don't repair themselves.

Typical signs of a partial or complete tear are reoccurring part-time or full-time lameness.

Crate rest, then you start exercising the dog again and the limp comes back.

You need to contact whomever is going to do the repair (should you decide to go that route) and consult with them.

I would NOT let "just some old regular vet" do the repair. Go to someone who's done it a bunch. You don't want your dog to be the guinea pig.

WRL

 

I agree with Ted for the most part... they usually don't get better with time and it is better to do surgery sooner rather than later as they heal so much easier when they are young. However; that being said, I have heard of some dogs who do "heal" with intense rest and nutraceutical therapy. We had both knees done on our girl when she was about 14 mos. and she was back to normal activity within two months. Amazing. And definitely do your homework on the vet who does the surgery if you choose to go that route.

 

Is the knee poping out causing a limp and then going back in on its own? Is the vet able to move it in and out?

 

I've had that thought. There have now been three different vets poking and pulling on him and that has not been mentioned.

I'm going to set up an appointment with a specialist next week.

It's just frustrating. I wish I could explain to him what is going on. He still acts like nothing is wrong and want to drive just as hard as he always has.

 

Go to a specialist. If it is a ccl do the surgery. The longer you wait, the more likely the dog with have more severe arthritis later in life. The old rest them usually never works.

 

Ditto. Only one dog, but both knees, 3 years apart.

They're pretty stoic animals, just imagine how bad that has to hurt for a dog to not want to put weight on it.

 

There is no way to know for certain if you have an ACL tear without going in. X Ray, MRI, Ultra sound, etc. - no good.

If you have a tear, I promise you it won't get better.
If you have a tear, it means nothing that dog is running around like normal.

You can wish, you can hope - but mostly that is worthless

See the specialist, do the surgery

 

Surgery is the way to go. These dogs do NOT tend to get better on their own and you are wasting precious time with an animal that you love. Someone please put the correct percentage in this blank but it comes to mind that over 80% of dogs who have one ACL go out have the other one repaired in a 3 year window. They recover well, feel better almost immediatly and spring is almost here for your rehab.

 

thanks everyone for all the suggestions and information. I should be able to get the referral on Monday and hopefully get an appointment during the week.

I will let eveyone know what the ortho says.

 

Having gone through this as often as I have, if - god forbid - another of my competition dogs were to get a partially torn ACL, I would strongly consider

- Having both knees done at the same time
- Doing one knee, waiting a month, then doing the other knee

If the dog were a pet, I might simply do one knee, then hope the remaining knee stayed ok.

But, with competition dog, I would just as soon consolidate the rehab and minimize the down time

 

...along with everything said here, ..if you are lucky enough to have a vet that is thoughtful to an athletic (athlete) retriever that you want to train and trial...along with being your companion/pet/housedog... seems that they would be sending you to an Orthopedic Surgeon for the best results possible.

Choose your Orthopedic Specialist carefully.....and stay on top of rehab after surgery, if that is done. Rehab (the best that you can provide) is as important as the surgery itself..

Good luck!

Judy

 

When getting a referral it might help if the specialist has an understanding of what field labs do for a living and what you hope to get as far as final outcome.

 

Ted, has your surgeon recommended doing surgery on both?

I have heard that a dog has a 50% chance of blowing the other ACL if the first one goes. What has been your percentage on your five?

I can certainly see the reasoning in fixing both at the same time when you consider down time from surgery.

 

Cost of doing both together is less than doing them apart, as you are only paying for anesthesia once. However, airing can be difficult and there is a higher risk of infection. But, if faced with decision again, I would think long and hard about doing both at same time. And if not, I would do one shortly after the other

 

My Lab had TPLO surgery on both knees, which gave her several great years she wouldn't have otherwise had. Find a board certified orthopedic surgeon and get a consult. I would never consider the "traditional" fix for a large canine athlete...where they use string to replace the ligament. Do your homework and good luck! Anne

 

Thanks again for all the suggestions.

Couple of questions:

!.) how were your dogs acting prior to the decision for surgery? Were they in pain and carrying the leg most or all of time?
2.) for those that got this done early in the dogs life, how has the health of the knee been in the later years of life? Arthritis?

We will see what the ortho says next week, but I still am not seeing him carry the leg. Three to five weeks ago you could walk him on leash and he would carry it from time to time. He went on a 30 minute walk yesterday and we did not see him carry it. Now he has had no "real" exercise and that may show different results.

 

Without question, you want to consult with a board certified orthopedic surgeon. One that is familiar with working Labs would be a plus.
Secondly, you want a rehab facility that has also done this before.

Pay carefull attention to Ted's comments!!

So far, 3 years after my dogs surgery, he continues to run like a deer.

Yes, it the the dog has torn a CCL, do the surgery NOW. Waiting until later does nothing for the dog... except make it worse.

 

I guess the torn ACL is my question right now. He has no swelling in the knee that can be see or felt. I always heard (now this has been on me and my knee issues) that is anything is torn it will swell.

 

If he is normal at this point and if he is not lame I would begin light work avoiding rough terrain or heavy cover, spend 2 or 3 weeks gradually increasing his work load

I posted about my Chef, TPLO One Dog's Experience

he had a similar history, mild lameness Dec. 2007 when he was 17 months old, I gave him 4 or 5 weeks of restricted activity and the lameness disappeared until Jan 2009 when he suffered a partial tear, in retrospect his initial injury was probably a strain

my wife is doing a research project to evaluate lameness with a very sophisticated computerized gait analysis system, she recorded Chef in Feb 2008 2 months after his injury when he appeared normal to me but the gait analysis revealed otherwise

she has subsequently recorded him after his first repair, both during and after rehab, and after the repair on the opposite limb both before and after rehab, his gait is now normal and his training is going well although he lost most of 2009

 

Very interesting about the research project and thanks for the advice. I will post on how this all goes. He will still see a specialist ASAP regardless of any future limp or lameness observed.

Maybe I will move to between Krum and Gribble so you can be my vet.

 

If you go with surgery, it's certainly your call as to whether to just do the bad knee or to do both ----- But there is some evidence that a particular Fish Oil will help protect the "good knee" from blowing after fixing the bad knee.
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
Here's a recent article that shows that Fish Oil protects the good knee following CCL repair (any type of surgery).
To make this easier to understand, AA, MMP's and uPA are the bad guys and TIMP is the good guy.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Fish oil decreases matrix metalloproteinases in knee synovia of dogs with inflammatory joint disease.Hansen RA, Harris MA, Pluhar GE, Motta T, Brevard S, Ogilvie GK, Fettman MJ, Allen KG.
Department of Health Promotion and Human Performance, Weber State University, Ogden, UT 84408, USA.

This study was designed to determine whether dietary fish oil affects the expression and activity of matrix metalloproteinases (MMP), tissue inhibitors of MMP-2 (TIMP-2) and urokinase plasminogen activator (uPA) in synovial fluid from dogs with spontaneously occurring stifle (knee) instability in a single hind limb resulting from acute cranial cruciate ligament (CCL) injury. Two groups of 12 dogs were fed diets from 1 week prior to surgery on the affected knee to 56 days post-surgery. The fish oil and control diets provided 90 and 45 mg, respectively, of combined eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)/kg body weight per day. Plasma and synovial fluid, from both surgical and nonsurgical knee joints, were obtained at start of the diet (-7), surgery day (0) and 7, 14, 28 and 56 days post-surgery. Plasma total EPA and DHA were significantly increased, and plasma total arachidonic acid (AA) was significantly decreased by the fish oil diet. In synovial fluid from the nonsurgical knee, fish oil treatment significantly decreased proMMP-2 expression at Days 7 and 14, and proMMP-9 expression at Day 56, and uPA activity at 28 days and significantly increased TIMP-2 expression at Days 7 and 28. There were no differences in MMP expression or activity, TIMP-2 expression and uPA activity in the surgical joint synovial fluid at any time throughout the study. These results suggest that dietary fish oil may exert beneficial effects on synovial fluid MMP and TIMP-2 equilibrium in the uninjured stifle of dogs with unilateral CCL injury.
PMID: 17531456 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]



.

 

We have been referred to Auburn University, Dr. Rob Gilette with our chessie. When I googled this program/vet I found a discussion of this "Gait Analysis" recording. Is this the same as the one you mentioned Dr. Ed?

 

Is she still over at Tuskeegee, Ed? Or has she moved in your direction? Wasn't she mainly doing rehab work/study/teaching? I can't remember.

But Jason is within reach of her, over near me here in GA.

-K

She has been back at Auburn for several years, she teaches, does research, and physical therapy/rehabilitation

the gait analysis system is new and unique and is separate and has no relationship to what Dr. Gillette is or was doing

 

Dr Ed,

Gait Analysis sounds really, really interesting. Hope there will be success with the research and something to offer in the near future..

...and ....

Doc E,

Wonder what the dosage of fish oil is in the study? ..do not see that information.

Thanks,

Judy

 

Doc E,

Wonder what the dosage of fish oil is in the study? ..do not see that information.

Thanks,

Judy

The article says, "The fish oil and control diets provided 90 and 45 mg, respectively, of combined eicosapentaenoic acid (EPA) and docosahexaenoic acid (DHA)/kg body weight per day."



.

 

Possibly Auburn is the answer. My wife and I both graduated from there so it would not hurt our feelings to go back for a few visits.

Not sure I will be able to drop $40k on a gait analysis study but it would be cool to see.

Update on pup. We let him have a little freedom yesterday. To be honest there was too much freedom for about 5 minutes as he played with a couple dogs. I should not have let that happen but I did. Other than that he got some controlled off leash time where he run some (not full out) Anyway, I did see him carry the leg several times and unless my eyes deceived me I saw him carry the left leg (right has been the issue) once. Now this is not completely new on the left as he carried both legs in the beginning a few times.

After we got home he showed no sign of anything again. This morning, nothing.

There is an issue with the leg(s) and I just need to get to the bottom of it and move one. I want my dog back. He is miserable and I am miserable.

I am talking to my primary vet today for advice and a referral and also talking to the first vet I saw (who did the hip x-rays) for the same thing.


Jason

 

$40,000 is what the system costs

Dr. Ron Montgomery is a very good orthopedic surgeon at Auburn

 

Oh, well that makes more sense.

Thanks for the name. I just spoke with my secondary vet and he has given me a referral to an orthopedic surgeon closer to home. This individual is reportedly very good (also an Auburn man). I can't get in to see him until the 24th of this month so that is a bummer.

 

Appointment is set for the 24th of this month with the Ortho Surgeon. I hear he is really good. I talked to the office when making the appointment and she stated that if the drawer test does not reveal movement in the knee then he may recommend 6 weeks of "no b.s." rest. She also stated that he would be considering multiple issues, not just cruciate ligament issues. They have not ruled out pano, OCD, etc...

We will see.

 

Well, I couldn't stand the wait so I called a very highly recommended Dr. Milton in Birmingham, AL just to see when he could take a look at River. Turns out he can see him tomorrow so I am making the drive over in the morning for a 9:45 AM appointment. I hear he is extraodinary, none the less I am stressed.

 

Good luck. Dr. Milton is very knowledgeable and thorough. We were in there a few weeks ago.

Be sure to get some Barbecue while youre here (Johnny Rays).

 

The longer you wait to get it fixed (i.e. tear completely), the more wear, tear, and damage you cause to the knee. This will maximize the development of arthritis and could cause additional damage to the miniscus.