While the content may be of interest, the quality of outcome is generally predetermined
by the knowledge & abilities of the author. Environment makes a difference.

 

That was my thought, Eric, that their sample did not include working dogs. I suggest if they sampled the stock dogs from up here, the FT retrievers, and European-bred police and military dogs they'd get a different result.

 

And the majority of us complain about show bred retrievers, their athleticism (or lack thereof), their trainability, and how well they swim and retrieve. The story mentions "bred for looks" and that is certainly the case with show bred dogs. Pet dogs are sort of willynilly which gene pool they represent. They also included mutts in the sample if I recall correctly.

 

I bet a really good trainer would /could train those show bred dogs to fetch a bumper?...If you look at the thousands of issues posted on rtf with field trial bred dogs ,perhaps if they were added to the mix it would be even more enlightening .

 

I bet a really good trainer would /could train those show bred dogs to fetch a bumper?

One tossed across the backyard, sure.

 

I've had a half dozen show bred dogs over the years. The second was one heck of a hunting dog - tough, tough girl. Ginger was a heck of a pheasant dog, a wonderful cold water duck dog, and a quail hunting at 12 and a half. Her kids did okay retrieving birds as puppies and bumpers as adults. But she couldn't get past JH. She was one stubborn girl training-wise. For sure a trainer or often most anyone can get show dogs to fetch a bumper. My oldest girl right now is the remnant of the show dogs I had and she loves bumpers. But its a matter of degree in terms of ability and trainability with numerous exceptions, at least in my experience.

 

I think the real flaw in the study is that there was nothing done to ensure "working" dogs were included. The idea seems to have been that the AKC is only interested in show dogs.

 

One of the study's authors runs a website and FB group which concentrates on breeding for function, not conformation shows. Of course, one of those functions is being suitable as a family companion--but, to me, that is a wonderful function if that is solely what a family is seeking. This particular author is also not opposed to cross-breeding which, of course, would make her suspect in the eyes of many.

 

Science usually comes the first part of the week. I'll look at the paper and see if there is anything that isn't consistent with that view.

 

Dog behavior is dog behavior regardless of breed. And yet all individuals are different from each other. On the other hand most pomeranians make poor herding dogs and most ****zu's make poor waterfowl dogs. Most studies are meaningless this one was really meaningless
Pete

 

Could have been a chessie my bad. who knows I tend to put name s with breeds. I'm not getting any younger

Pete

 

Annie is the Chessie and she is CH, MH, QAA2

 

I know one of the veterinarians involved in this study. It is being misinterpreted by many media outlets. Here is the link to the actual article. While surveys based on owner-reported behavior must always be taken with a grain of salt, Science is quite a well respected site and this research was peer-reviewed. (Incidentally, the two traits found to be most genetically linked are retrieving and herding.)

https://www.science.org/doi/10.1126/science.abk0639

 

You would have to throw out 180000+ questionnaires due to the subjective opinions of pet owners, except for the questions on how big is your dog. What is the purpose of this study? How can it be applied? Did she consider the Russian study on Foxes. By breeding only the non aggressive foxes on the farm altered the shape and form of the fox and also changed them psycologiclly, thus turning them into acceptable pets. There was no guess work on this experiment because one can see the product of the experiment.
Pete

 

Any study that has an author or authors, is automatically subjective to others , when authors run a website or FB group, many focus on what objectional content is relative to personal and individual objection ,often rather than the subject matter. Much like a forum post by anyone on any topic.

It perplexes me personally, why a genetic survey is actually required and actually performed or published or discussed in 2022. Just asking because , maybe everyone never knew the answers in the survey last year , or ten years ago or even 50 years ago ,or a platform these days for experts to tell experts to agree on how expert they are, and non recognized experts be told by other experts who think they are experts because they have a ribbon and someone else hasn't .
...
Who's on First Base ?
Just for fun ...Not too many Standard Poodles have won the Retriever Championships, same for Boykin or many other including ..American Cocker !! but that doesn't mean that the Standard Poodle or any other couldn't win the retriever championship, it just means that the rules on qualifying ,requires that a Retriever breed designated by the breed council allows only a retriever breed to enter or to qualify, hence Not many for all to breed and pout and promote how good or bad or 'indifferent' , but I can tell ya this ,many can ,and surpass in the shooting field ,even with collar and non collar (probably same numbers % ratio of Labrador Retriever who wash out world wide from Field trial bred dogs ? ..scary eh' when you think of the huge numbers of dogs bred from the most popular breed in the world) ..Now here is one I would like an answer (My ignore list is growing tbf) so I may not see every response .(Thanks for that intel Chris, the true Janitor). If the programs that are sold by the so many that have success in competition , why doesn't it work with all the thousands of dogs and tens of thousands of owners who have 'well bred dogs' (I include all the health tested , and yea pedigree of red and numerous achievements by the sire and dam ) ...8 weeks old ,any dog is just 8 weeks ,It hasn't inherited stop on the whistle and it hasn't inherited heel work and it hasn't inherited overs and it hasn't inherited hold and it hasn't inherited swim bye and it ...well I Could go on by quoting every ever drill by every, every person . But, at 8 weeks old it certainly does Not have any of the characteristics or behaviors or aptitude or ability or opportunity or similar environment or nurture as it's Field Trial champion sire or dam or handler/trainer , although most would like to think so. ..The survey stinks btw.

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but at 8 weeks old the most well-bred puppy selected by the most knowledgeable puppy-picker in the world and trained by the best trainer with the most flexible approach to training the actual dog they have not just training to the system has no guarantee of success. If we are talking American Field Trials, an extremely well-bred litter (say NFC to FC AFC from a strong bitch line) has a higher probability of producing one or more successful dogs. And that probability is enhanced if the puppies are raised by people that know how to raise a competition puppy and goes to a successful top-of-the-line successful trainer. But its only a probability! Not a certainty. An independent variable is the training system - some are better than others. Another independent variable is the trainer - is the trainer a cookie cutter trainer that has better success with certain kinds of dogs and other kinds fail? Is the trainer flexible and trains the dog he or she has rather than the dog they wish they have or think they have? Is the trainer an imbecile that relates not at all to dogs but reads a book or watches a video well? Did a puppy get sick as a baby and had very subtle developmental issues. Was it in the chute a little too long and got a little less oxygen than it did? There's millions of variables at play. Play the averages and maybe you'll have a competitive dog. And maybe not

 

I'm not exactly sure what you're asking, but at 8 weeks old the most well-bred puppy selected by the most knowledgeable puppy-picker in the world and trained by the best trainer with the most flexible approach to training the actual dog they have not just training to the system has no guarantee of success.
There's millions of variables at play. Play the averages and maybe you'll have a competitive dog. And maybe not

 

This study is akin to a wisdom panel on which breeds of dogs makes up a mutt, fun table reading but relies on snip of genetic code which are present in most breeds of dog regardless. Then also relies on owner questionaires, to how they believe their dog reacts, no actual testing or scale. It's also pet dogs, prehaps purebred, perhaps not. The Labrador population itself has an over abundance of genetic variability to be able to screen such traits within it's own population (Show, Pet, working) to come up with reliable marker data. This study is several breeds of dogs compared to a highly variable mutt popluation. Could see they might be better off attempting to make correlation in a less diverse population maybe flat-coats, dalmatians etc. trainable individuals compared to non, or dogs with xyz trait vs not. Until then these types of studies are pretty much tarot-card readings of behavior data, no way to prove or disprove just an interpretation of observational genetic-behavioral data put together.

 

TBH , I Don't know who or what the 'Best' dog handler/trainer/owner or even any handle you want to use, and especially on a any survey , If you factor in one of the worst and down right rudest and blunt persons in the world who just happens to have over 100 ftc's , consistently producing what you like or want . give Opie a call . He won't listen .

 

DP is correct in terms of what I'm talking about. And "Extremely" is quantified, perhaps not perfectly, in terms of American Field Trials. First, NFC means the dog not only won an Open in the preceding year, but then beat +/- 100 dogs over the course of 10 series. And often that NFC has a stronger track record than just that particular year. Using Entry Express and Retriever Results, you can determine the number of trials entered, the number placed, and the number won. And you can figure out how many dogs were bested for each placement and over how many years. Then, you can look at offspring and their record as well as a measure of how well the dog produces. In terms of FC AFC from a strong bitch line, to accumulate enough points to earn both titles is no trivial thing and again you can determine how many tries it took to achieve the titles. Then you move downstream to offspring and their accomplishments followed by looking upsteam to their mother, grandmother, great grandmother, and their records of both success in the field (if any) and their progeny. Follow that by looking at siblings and their individual success and the success of their progeny as a weighted measure (giving more value to the dogs in question but not ignoring siblings, aunts, uncles and the like) and its not difficult to establish a metric of what constitutes excellence. As DP says, there is plenty of documented evidence and at present it is easily accessible. Some people can even carry that information around in their heads (I'm not one of them).

Other measures we've been discussing I agree are subjective, but excellence in the way I intended is objective. Not a perfect predictor by any means, but over a sample of say 100 puppies, its a better predictor than anything else I can think of.

You're question "where are the numbers"? Entry express and Retriever Results, two easily accessible databases. Throw in K9data and the Labrador database (senior moment, don't remember the name right now) I think in this case "Excellent" is more than an assertion. Like the next guy (or gal) I'm full of assertions and beliefs only poorly grounded in facts, but I don't think that's true for this particular issue.

 

the Labrador database

Hunting Lab pedigree

Lots of points and placements over several consecutive years (and generations) point to good health and physical structure.

 

I've done one of these studies. When you arrive at the end you realize
you left out another item or 2 that would have proven useful.

In my case I did a study of all owner handlers as judges, 1963-2008. Lots of
reputation slaying info along with some very good info. Not well received by
the community. What I missed was spaces for Jam's & RJ's plus a list of all
trials judged & the dogs placed in those trials. It was not until I was about 1/2
way through 5,000 hours of research that I realized that error.

 

Here is a podcast on which one of the authors/researchers of the study explains it. I think many of you will be particularly interested when she talks about Labradors. If you start the podcast at about the 24:30 minute mark, you will hear some of the essence of the study's conclusions. To paraphrase, she says dogs of a particular breed are not clones of each other. She then goes on to explain most Labradors like to retrieve and swim but some do not. She mentions that people might think no Golden Retriever would ever be aggressive but some are. She says there are likely behavioral differences between a Labrador from a show line vs. a field line vs., etc., etc., etc.

Cog-Dog Radio - Dogs, Personality, and Breed with Dr Jessica Hekman