ps -- I do force fetch freestyle -- no table, no cable... Maybe it's time to revive my force fetch line??? hmmmmm....

 

My opinion, either you get the bear or the bear get's you. I don't nessecarily think this is breed specific but you happen to have a big aggressive dominant dog on your hands and he has given you fair warning.
Your decision to make is whether your willing to have this particular showdown or not. If you decide it's worth the risk then take all the precautions you mention in your post and make sure you put yourself in a position to make clear in no uncertain terms that at the end of the day there will be one leader and that would be you. Unless you are 100 percent committed to seeing this through to completion no matter what he throws at you then I would call it a day and move on.

 

Kristie, I've only been training for about three years. I do have two chessies, one of which spent about nine months with a pro that trains mostly peaks.. When he ff a chessie he uses a toe hitch instead of the ear pinch. He explained to me that alot of chessies just won't tolerate you pinching their ears. They take it personally and do much better with the toe hitch. I had never heard or read this, but he's trained some very successful dogs. Anyway good luck to you

 

kristie,
If he were mine I would go through the initial stages of "pinch" by short tying him (6 inches) to a wall or pole to control head movemant and also wear leather gloves and a Carhart. I would do this at least until he learns how to turn the pressure off snapping out at the bumper and not your face or arm. Also, I would continue to routinely review OB perhaps before each session to remind him you are in the dominant position.
Good Training,
Peake

PS Show zero negative emotion/nervousness if possible!
________
Weed vaporizer

 

I also just remembered that yesterday we were talking about getting one of those forearm guards for about $20 at sports authority... i hate even thinking of going through this much trouble...

 

Might want to invest in a nice pair of welding gloves too!!

 

Kristie, please post pictures of your training attire before you go into combat

 

Hi.Maybe just me...but its not worth it....If any potential student has a history like that,and he growls at me ....he gets sent home with a letter form me,warning the client of the potential problems interacting with humans.I too FF on the ground ...standing on the rope.My face is fairly close to the dog.No matter how sweet they are they can still kill us whenever they go over the edge.I now you are smart enough not to get hurt....but as a pro trainer,and the dog having been trained by you,if the dog ends up hurting someone else,it could come back to you.Like I said ...not worth it.Good luck.

 

Kristie,

We have never had an aggression issue on the table when doing FF, but to ensure that any potential bite issues were avoided, we have used the toe pinch versus ear pinch for the exact reason that your hand, arm and face are away from the dog and the potential of a bite.

Sue

 

Kristie you are too good to be fooling with this dog.
If you are in a tight and really need the $ which I doubt, pm me and I will give you a loan.
Life is too short.

 

Kristie, I'm most concerned about your concern. I've watched you work, and it is your incredible self confidence that enables you to get the results you do. If you are concerned about this dog's reactions enough to post it here, you are really worried. The dog is going to pick up on that immediately and there may be hell to pay. I agree with Mike Perry, let this one go, it just isn't worth it.

 

I have seen people do this, and have done something similar. Put out 2 steel fence posts, about 3 feet apart. Now you can run a chain from each post to the collar. This greatly limits the dogs movement. I did this a couple of years ago with a 100 pound lab that had the goal of just manually ripping my arm off with every pinch of the ear. After 3 or 4 days I couldn't handle it, so I did the posts, and it worked pretty well. Good luck.

 

Kristie,

This is not all that atypical with an Alpha CBR, he is testing you and it sounds like you passed if you kept your dominance. I have an 8 year old that is great in the field but once in a while still tests to make sure I am still the Alpha in the pack. Never bitten or really even tried just tried to assert dominance in the manner you describe.

Your approach seems valid maybe a little over cautious but there is nothing wrong with that at all. I would further suggest giving the dog a break for a few days from the process. This usually works wonders with a CBR, they work on their schedule so trying to shove them through the "program" usually doesn't work well.

If you have gained the dogs respect you may also see him try avoidance by shutting down on you, crawl between your legs and lay down, no gos, etc.

To those who said it isn't worth it, please don't take CBRs in for training this is not all that atypical and certainly not worth giving up on a dog.

 

Don't think you are strong enough to handle this dog.....IF you decide to FF make sure you don't show any fear or reservations or you WILL get bit. ( Been there done that) Being a female we are just not strong enough to hold them. Make sure you have someone with you at all times. I'm not saying he will bite but he has given you the indications that he will and it is better to be safe than sorry. This behavior is NOT acceptiable and should of been nipped in the bud from the get go.
Just went thru the same thing with my 9 month old female and my husband took over because I could not hold her. She was like a croc rolling and doing the death roll. Almost broke my arm. He got her thru FF and I am now doing her training. She is the sweetest thing but didn't want her ear pinched.
Also, DON'T get your face near his because if he does bit he's not going to care where or who he bits.....once a peake knows he can get away with anything its too late...they NEVER forget!
I have had chessies for 21 years, I'm no expert but.......


Joyce ( Blackwater Chesapeakes)

 

Don't think you are strong enough to handle this dog.....(snip)Joyce ( Blackwater Chesapeakes)

Trust me, I can handle him as far as physically restraining him. I've force fetched a ton of dogs of different sizes and strengths. I'm not worried about that part. I'm more worried about my speed, which has also never been an issue... But that's why I want backup. I've held apart two male dogs one in each hand before... Strength has never been an issue with anything with me. Not bragging, but just saying. I just want to hear more about the behavior part that I have minimal experience with and I will not, and have not let him get away with a thing. When he was lunging at people and dogs in his kennel, I would walk right in and correct him. Seems there are different triggers and that's just what I have to figure out and stay on my toes IF I decide to proceed. Thanks for all the great advice.

-K

EDITED TO ADD -- I absolutely will start with some restraint!!!

 

Sounds to me like this dog is a real problem just waiting to happen. If this were a post about a dog who had bitten or even tried to bite someone 2 or 3 times most answers you would get would be get rid of the dog or even something more drastic. I can't see continuing training him. If I were the owner I wouldn't keep him in training- I wouldn't keep him period. I don't want to spend money on a dog that shows these aggressive signs toward people. I don't want that liability.

If I were a pro trainer I wouldn't continue training him. Risking that he would tear me up one day, one of my helpers, a visitor, or another clients dog. You now know the dog is aggressive- let something happen and he get to a clients dog or a visitor and injures him then see how you like explaining it. Yes I knew the dog was aggressive and posted on the internet that I'm concerned about training him and that he is aggressive to other dogs and visitors. Why would you want that liability? We all take risks everyday but why take one that you know is much more likely to have bad results? I admire your effort and desire to help a possibly talented dog in the field but I don't think it is worth all the risks.

Gene

 

You might try approaching the FF the way we do. Instead of the typical table/cable system, we sit on a bucket in front of sturdy kennel fencing.

The dog has on a flat buckled collar, fitted tightly. The D-ring of the ollar is attached to the kennel fence with one of those brass double latches, so the head can not move around much.

The back end is wrapped with a snug fitting weight lifting belt, these also have a d-ring which is also attached to the kennel fence with the dog in a standing position.

Now the dog cannot back up, move forward, sit down, lie down, or dance around. You have complete control and can maintain your safe distance from the biting end. Gradually as the dog learns to deal with the force the restrictions are removed.

I hope that helps if you continue to work with this dog.

 

You might try approaching the FF the way we do. Instead of the typical table/cable system, we sit on a bucket in front of sturdy kennel fencing.

The dog has on a flat buckled collar, fitted tightly. The D-ring of the ollar is attached to the kennel fence with one of those brass double latches, so the head can not move around much.

The back end is wrapped with a snug fitting weight lifting belt, these also have a d-ring which is also attached to the kennel fence with the dog in a standing position.

Now the dog cannot back up, move forward, sit down, lie down, or dance around. You have complete control and can maintain your safe distance from the biting end. Gradually as the dog learns to deal with the force the restrictions are removed.

I hope that helps if you continue to work with this dog.

This sounds like it might be a good way to start. I think there's a balance somewhere between restraint and freedom of movement. I clipped a client dog's (boarding dog) toenails the other day. He historically is a nasty little booger and tries to eat people when the clip his nails. I've done this maybe a dozen times with different dogs that have nail clipping issues. I simply restrain them just by the collar and don't take their baloney. Usually by the fourth nail, they're calm and I praise them the rest of the way through. But my point in this is... I find that in some cases, if you muzzle and tighten and batten down the hatches, sometimes that creates anxiety and makes the situation worse with some dogs.

But I absolutely feel like I need to start with some restraint. I think your idea is super... It's been so long since I've used a line to FF that I hadn't even thought about it...

-K

 

The first thing I was going to say is don’t put him on a table, you might lose your head but I see you don’t use one anyway. I would definitely use some form of restraint so you can get away from him if need be. I use to have a nice table with a cable, but only really needed the cable once and I was glad I had it. If you are as confident in him as you say you are I would give it a try using the plan you laid out and without a doubt make sure you have a helper there just in case. Good luck

BTW- one addition you might want to make to your “fighting gear” is a pair of fish cleaning gloves. They are kind of a chain mail (not the correct spelling I know) that may help keep a tooth from going through your hand….maybe. I know they will stop a catfish spike and there is nothing harder in the world than that….except maybe a chessies head. I saw someone using these for FF and it seemed like a good idea. They sell them at WalMart and such

 

.....He had a habit of barking, snarling, and charging at visitors to his house and I believe on 2-3 or three occasions trying to bite and/or making contact with them.

.....Put him in a kennel run and have a stranger go by and he's nasty.....

..... And we're about done with the lesson... He drops the bumper. I give him a good pop because we're well into the lesson -- NOT anything over the top, just a nice firm pop with a firm no (no yelling or anything) and the sucker GROWLS at me.....

....When he growled, I gave him a quick yank of the collar, told him quiet and sit. He continued, and I repeated a little more firmly and he stopped. I put the bumper in his mouth (trying to not be at all nervous, lol) and off we went, no problem.....

My plan is this:
.....
-K

Before I spent time camping at Rex Carr's, I was training daily (Sauvie Island was our second home) with Jerry Patopea who at that time was living with Linda Harger. Fireweed was a young dog then. That was my first exposure to Chessies.

From your description this individual presents defense aggression (per classic definition in the German school of Schutzhund) - that is, aggression is expressed when the dog perceives his personal space is penetrated. We see that more in protection dogs than in sporting breeds. Defense aggression is useful in protection dogs but only if it is in balance with social and prey aggression. Well enough of that.....

Hopefully there is no dominance issue to compound this problem feature, so I will address this as if there is no compounding dominance involved.

Part of what I write below I have learned from Jim Dobbs - making sure I give credit where due. The technique is different from ff sporting dogs because this type of aggression has been bred out of most sporting dogs (well, should have been bred out anyway). For those who don't know, I also have competition Schutzhund or working GSDs.

(1) You can still ear pinch by pinching the outside ear, or the ear away from you. If the dog bites he will turn away from you towards the source of discomfort.

(2) Practice using eye before you get into a ff session with him. Practice for several days so you can observe what kind of behavior to expect when you use eye to control him (by using eye I mean it in the herding context).

Sidenote: if you elicit aggressive behavior from dog when you use eye, that may mean you have a dominance issue to boot. Second sidenote: if you have not use eye before you may not know your own level of control. Maybe practice it elsewhere first? This is an extremely powerful tool of control for close range work, if you know how to use eye. It would have been better if you've been using eye for a longer while before ff, and shortcutting now may mean it's not as effective. Still, no harm in applying.

(3) While Rex did not personally ff his clients' dogs, he taught me some things about ff I have not seen or read about from any other pro trainers. I have tomes of notes on this. To make a long story short: rather than push a dog of this type into aggressive behavior, stop just before he pulls the trigger, and shove the bumper back into his mouth again, repeating your command.

You may end up with a lot more reps. You can pressure him up to the point of aggression, key word is "up to". This means your reading of your dog must be precise! Then you compromise, and show him what you expect him to do. Again. And again. And again. Each time, you may be able to apply more pressure, or you may not.

As you know the ff process is not complete unless the command is pressure sealed. At some point in time, longer later on than the average dog, you should be able to apply the maximum amount of pressure and the dog should be responding by directing his aggression towards grabbing the bumper, and later on, other objects - from pure reflex alone.

(4) I wouldn't use water to cool off a hot situation. When a dog's adrenaline is up due to defense stimulus and he is presenting aggression, he won't notice the water, and the water will just put you the trainer on the slippery slope to mud.;-)

If the dog goes off on you, you need to be 6'4'' tall, the collar (not choke collar) needs to be snug enough on the dog so you can hoist him up, all 4 feet at least 2 feet off the ground, and have him dangle for a bit so he can collect his thoughts while in the air .

Otherwise your plan is sound.

 

Good idea to have a helper if it got really ugly but here is what I would do. He already growled at you once-strike one. The next time he even looked like he was going to growl or bite I would have him on his back with me on top of him(one of us will probably be bleeding a little) -strike two. If he did it again, strike three he's out of there. Good luck and be careful.

 

BAD IDEA !!!!! Read Zipmarc's post there is more going on than a dominance issue.
you do that with 12 week old puppies not full grown Peake's

 

Kristie, I know you are a very good trainer so don't take this personally. We've had Chesapeakes for over 35 years. We always send them out for force fetching and then do the rest of the training ourselves. Chesapeakes do better on a table. Some Chesapeakes respond better to a toe hitch than an ear pinch. I would send the dog home and recommend to the owner that they find a trainer who is greatly experienced with Chesapeakes to do the job. I can think of one such trainer right there in Valdosta. They are not everyone's breed.

 

Is it Wayne?
I agree. I know one experienced trainer that had her arm ripped open all the way down the inside. Not a Chesapeake but very painful.

 

Don't think it's a chessie thing, sounds like a dog trying to establish the pecking order. The first time he growled, need to change dominate behavior right then and there. Sounds like a challenge, good luck ,have fun, be careful.

 

You can get it from any breed. Your own safety is key. On a mean dog, I had three lines on him. Make sure all leads are double swiveled becuse sometimes they'll start rolling on you and can roll up and choke in a rope or chain.

One lead goes from you to his collar. A second goes from the snap of your lead a metal fence post. A third goes from a flank strap to a post. Now he can't charge and can't move much.

Always wear leather gloves.

Use a training bumper with a cut off whip or fiberglass handle on it about a foot long so your hand is not near the bumper.

Always use the outside ear. It is impossible for him to twist in and bite you, and if he tries and goes crazy, you can kind of throw him away from you and restrain him with the three leads.

Now, you don't know me, but I have to tell you. If he's really mean, it isn't worth it. I worked on a dog named AFC GAhonk's Moonraker Rebel. We made him an AFC but he was the single meanest dog I have ever seen and chewed up the owner on different occasions. Consider yourself and the owner carefully before you continue with this dog, or at least evaluate him very carefully.

 

Kristie,

Check your pm's.

Ron

 

Kristie, I've been training and owning Chessies 20 yrs but have never had one growl at me during trianing, neveer mind trying to sink the ivory into my hide. I would seriously consider doing some dominance work with this one, AND dooing FFfrom a stout table. A buddy of mine has one with a 4x4 post on each end supporting the cable (he does the Delmar Smith toe hitch). with that rig, he can if necessary secure the dog to prevent ANY head movement.

 

I've FF'd just about every gundog breed out there and while I do think some breeds have traits, at the end of the day each dog is unique. I think since there is a valid safety concern, I would short tie him to beam or something solid and then slow down the process. Putting enough pressure on him to make progress but don'w push him into a panic or "red zone" type situation. Saftety comes first.

/Paul

 

The tool i would use is a telephone. Telling daddy to come get him. life's too short, and theres too many dogs out there. I don't have time to fool with an aggressive dog, and like it or not, he's established a pattern. not just with you, but at home too. if he were a 45 lb black lab my opinion would be the same. And it's just that; my opinion. Good Luck

 

I can honestly tell you, Bill Sargenti feels the same way!