[Chris Meyer]

I've seen some improvement if the dog, after tests isn't kenneled immediately and has time to run or "play". They don't dread giving the bird up so much then.

 

[copterdoc]

I'm just going to throw this out there.

Is it possible, that the handler is subconciously doing something, that tells the dog that he is holding the last bird in the series?

I have seen dogs that were "trained" to count fingers held up, by barking, pawing the floor ect..

What they are really doing, is barking, pawing, ect.. until they see the owner do some kind of subconcious twitch or sigh.

 

[bruce]

for wht it's worth you aren't alone...I have a freezer sleeping by the front door, pinned a complex triple and two whistled a big girl blind tonight, not a single flinch or stutter, but weekend before last at the club hunt he froze solid ,, got a good correction but have decided it's over for him as far as testing goes... he'll have to be content training and hunting ... good luck with your problem ... if you discover anything that works let me know ... my theory is that it began in training when a "PRO" didn't do enough teaching ... and too much pressure ... it is related to hold ... and sit ...in my humble opinion ... hell he don't care about no stinking ribbons.. just birds, kibble, and a good snif in the holding blind and he's good to go ...

 

[Aussie]

I have a dog who used to freeze (cured with one large well timed correction during training). Unfortunately he went onto intermittent crunching small birds during trials.

Cure:

(1) No trials.

(2) Positive reinforcement. Started in the house without a retrieving object and rewarded with food, while reaching for an invisible object. Cooked chicken, human grade mince. Continued to use food rewards, in training and after tests.

In the last 7 trials - no damaged birds. No strange eye "devil" look.

By using food I changed and/or extended his motivation.

 

[luvalab]

Not to belabor a point Sue but the dog does not do it in training. Therefore when would "you" say that he is fit to return to testing. There is no other measure of whether the dog is going to freeze or not. He either does or he does not and the day and time is entirely up to him. On days when he does not, he may or may not pass based on his other work.

I can't say he was sticky three times this week during training so I can't test. No it does not work that way.

I may get 4 weeks of trouble free training followed by a good test, then 4 more weeks of trouble free training followed by a freeze on the last bird of the second or third series.

As mentioned above The only thing that seems to work is a break from testing so I agree to that extent but, there is no signal that it is OK to return. Just as there is not one that he should not run. When he freezes I can say yep, we should not have run this week. When he passes with no problems or does not pass but still did not freeze I can say well I guess it was OK to run this week.

I was judged once by a good friend and on the last bird of the second series my dog started to stick; this had been a minor, but escalating, problem at points in tests--but only once in a blue moon in training; since he'd seen me run my dog without a problem a gazillion times in training, he was able to see me do something funky when taking delivery in the test.

I can't describe really what I was doing that was so odd, but since my friend/judge pointed it out ASAP when he could I could remember and acknowledge that my body language was weird. Basically I got all tense, and was freaking the dog out. By anticipating the problem, I was cueing the dog that I believed something was wrong, and he was reacting by sticking. What I feared, I created. I can't say it won't happen again, but it hasn't happened since.

The next time you run a test, maybe you can have someone that knows your body language really well watch you and see if you're doing something unusual in a test situation relative to what you do in training.

 

[duckdawg27]

Is it possible, that the handler is subconciously doing something, that tells the dog that he is holding the last bird in the series?

This is a very real possiblity. I think any dog that has become test wise is picking up on these clues. I have noticed that not only do I do little things but everyone "in the test environment" does little things. The judges get up out of their chair when the dog is on the way back from the last mark or yell "plant the blind". Marshall yells out the next three dog numbers. Bird boys move about getting ready for the next dog etc. There are a million little ques to tell the dog something different is about to happen. Many of them are beyond a handlers control.

Thanks for everyone's input.

 

[Kevin WI]

This is a very real possiblity. I think any dog that has become test wise is picking up on these clues. I have noticed that not only do I do little things but everyone "in the test environment" does little things. The judges get up out of their chair when the dog is on the way back from the last mark or yell "plant the blind". Marshall yells out the next three dog numbers. Bird boys move about getting ready for the next dog etc. There are a million little ques to tell the dog something different is about to happen. Many of them are beyond a handlers control.

Thanks for everyone's input.

Ya know...every once in awhile you read something you really never even thought of before....No way to know for certain, but this could be a possible answer to how the dog knows he's carrying the last bird he's going to get.

 

[retrvrs]

I sent you a PM.

 

[DL]

I am just asking this as a question. If a dog is test wise, and sticking on birds, how many entry fees would be lost if right at the moment a dog stuck on a bird by refusing the drop command, the handler bent down and opened a dogs mouth and took the bird?

Whatever game the dog is playing instantly ends, and whatever cues made the dog think he could get a way with it become irrelevant. Problem solved?

 

[Brad Slaybaugh]

I am just asking this as a question. If a dog is test wise, and sticking on birds, how many entry fees would be lost if right at the moment a dog stuck on a bird by refusing the drop command, the handler bent down and opened a dogs mouth and took the bird?

Whatever game the dog is playing instantly ends, and whatever cues made the dog think he could get a way with it become irrelevant. Problem solved?

DL

I think touching the dog would get you dropped at that test for sure, and that really isn't a cure. Nothing to keep him from doing it again and again. I think you need something for the dog to think about and make him realize that it's not worth it to hold on to the bird once told to drop.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I'm listening to them all and trying to come up with a plan to go on from here. We have about 3 months to work on it before we'll run again and hopefully we'll get something worked out.

Brad

 

[Kyle B]

I don't think I am stating something contrary to what others are saying. I have experience with a "sticky" dog and it is a life long issue that you cannot forget about or it will bite you. You need a bag of tricks for dealing with it at a trial, I have several and I have seen several people post them here....line them up for another bird, reaching around for bird, etc....trying to break the "haze" that the dog is in seems to be the general theme.

In training I am always very careful with the discipline and pressure that this dog receives coming and going to the line and when taking every bird. It's literally a ritual that I go through with the dog. PM me if you want some direct things that I have had success with, although I don't have one silver bullet for all occasions.

The one comment about forcefully removing the bird at a trial....I would suggest that people be very careful with this. Some may construe any touching of your dog (especially prying open his jaw) in a bad light and you could end up in Field Trial/Hunt Test jail.

 

[metalone67]

I had this problem with my yfl she knew it was the last bird and wouldn't give it up. So I corrected the problem by putting her an the table and did the ear pinch to the word "out". It took about three days of this and haven't had a problem since. Don't know if it was the right thing to do but it worked for "hold" why wouldn't it work for "out".

 

[marshmonster]

"The one comment about forcefully removing the bird at a trial....I would suggest that people be very careful with this. Some may construe any touching of your dog (especially prying open his jaw) in a bad light and you could end up in Field Trial/Hunt Test jail."


I do believe that is why the one I saw got carried to the truck.

Pretty sure the handler and the dog had a "little less than gentle" training session going on back there

 

[DL]

I take my fingers and push in at the checks so that if the dog bit down he would be biting on his gums, and the mouth opens. It doesn't take any force. At the very worst, it is just attrition.

 

[DL]

DL

I think touching the dog would get you dropped at that test for sure, and that really isn't a cure. Nothing to keep him from doing it again and again. I think you need something for the dog to think about and make him realize that it's not worth it to hold on to the bird once told to drop.

Thanks for all the suggestions so far. I'm listening to them all and trying to come up with a plan to go on from here. We have about 3 months o work on it before we'll run again and hopefully we'll get something worked out.

Brad

Brad,

I see it like a chain of events that gets broken. I also realise that I don't know what I am talking about, but really if my dog is holding onto something I don't want it to have I take it out of their mouth by pushing on their cheeks in the gaps between the jaws, and I don't think they like it. At least it teaches them they can't keep me from having something unless they swallow it. I imagine that it speeds up the swallowing but they realize that they can't keep something by clinching it.

 

[duckdawg27]

I take my fingers and push in at the checks so that if the dog bit down he would be biting on his gums, and the mouth opens. It doesn't take any force. At the very worst, it is just attrition.

Sorry DL,
its just not the same problem. Most trainers have dealt with "Sticky" dogs and all have their method for dealing with it. I'm finding that not so many have dealt with "Freezing" because not very many have found any way to do anything about it. Most I have met that have seen it, believe it cannot be corrected. Some believe it can be managed.

 

[Tamid]

I had this problem surface on my dog at abouit age 3 when he was into the
9th hunt test of getting his Masters. However, I have another command other than 'give that is trained during FF, that is trained into all my dogs from day one. I walk my dogs through the back alleys in my neighborhood so I don't have to put them on leash. They are always sniffing at garbage cans and picking up things. I start by running over putting my thumbs into their mouth at the back of the jaw and shaking their head until what ever is in their mouth drops out. It doesn't hurt them but they certainly don't like it. By the time they are 10 months I can give the command and they will spit out whatever is in their mouth. This is what I did with my dog and it seemed to work. I got through the 10th hunt test without a problem and got his Masters. Then I retired him to hunting. Since that time he has picked up well over 5000 geese in his guiding career and I've never had a repeat problem.

 

[fishduck]

Sorry DL,
its just not the same problem. Most trainers have dealt with "Sticky" dogs and all have their method for dealing with it. I'm finding that not so many have dealt with "Freezing" because not very many have found any way to do anything about it. Most I have met that have seen it, believe it cannot be corrected. Some believe it can be managed.

Ken as you know I am no expert but the dog you are discussing is freezing. The normal sticky fixes are not going to work. I watched you and the dog in the last test you ran and saw nothing you were doing differently. I think the dog froze while there was still a double blind to be picked up.

Someone gave me some advice when Annie was a little sticky at a test and I incorrectly described it as freezing. This trainer always throws happy bumpers while airing the dog. Both in training and testing before taking the dog to the line. The last happy bumper is thrown and left on the ground at the truck. A cue is spoken. After completing the test or training while delivering the last bird instead of drop the cue is used again. This reminds the dog in a totally positive way that there is still another bumper to retrieve. This worked for this trainer with this dog.
Mark L.

 

[Aussie]

This trainer always throws happy bumpers while airing the dog. Both in training and testing before taking the dog to the line. The last happy bumper is thrown and left on the ground at the truck. A cue is spoken. After completing the test or training while delivering the last bird instead of drop the cue is used again. This reminds the dog in a totally positive way that there is still another bumper to retrieve. This worked for this trainer with this dog.
Mark L.

Interesting. I tried using bumpers and/or birds but the mouth problem did not resolve. Took more time too especially in the conditioning and retraining using drills etc, than food which is easily given, quick, and convenient.

 

[Brad Slaybaugh]

Brad,

I see it like a chain of events that gets broken. I also realise that I don't know what I am talking about, but really if my dog is holding onto something I don't want it to have I take it out of their mouth by pushing on their cheeks in the gaps between the jaws, and I don't think they like it. At least it teaches them they can't keep me from having something unless they swallow it. I imagine that it speeds up the swallowing but they realize that they can't keep something by clinching it.

DL, I agree with you as far as that if you press the cheek against the teeth, they'll open up. I think with this problem though, I won't be able to get him to freeze during training, and you can"t touch the dog during a test. If I can get him to freeze when we're training, I can show him why it's not the thing to do, but at a test is another ballgame.

Brad