[Dogguy123]

Hey guys first time posting!
Hopefully I’m in the right place in forum! I do believe so!
Got my first dog in the table and all is well except hold! Her hold is sloppy we are working on it most of the time barely doing fetch! But she wants to let whatever training object I use hang out of mouth and this will be my first hunt test dog so I’m aiming for perfection lol! Anybody have tips to help her hold! (Aiming for her to hold while she ****s lol high standards!) thanks so much guys!!!

 

[Don Smith]

What program are you using? There are a few good ones out there. I suggest Evan Graham's SmartFetch, available in both book and DVD. Very detailed. I suggest both. Available at www.gundogsupply.com

 

[Dogguy123]

I’m using the training my grand father taught me but he passed away. Never really learned any tricks on helping with hold but I’m going to check out your dvd and see what I can find thanks a lot!

 

[dogguy438]

What does she do with a real bird when training?

 

[Dogguy123]

we haven’t moved to birds yet because of this issue! I was always taught to use birds once hold and fetch are established with all other objects100% of the time

 

[Backcast]

I needed to clean up my two year old's HOLD and I did a search here on HOLD and found a ton of info. I started with a glove in the mouth and progressed through various items to birds and walking at heel with good hold. I then revisited FF with E collar and I'm very happy with results. This was a clean up and not initial training and it took about two weeks. Also, are you sure your pup is done teething? Good luck.

 

[Bryan Parks]

A couple questions..

How good is "sit"? Does the dog move around when you are teaching "Hold"?

Obedience should be solid first so you aren't fighting the dog to be still and you can praise a good response.

Have the dog sit, place object in mouth with hand under chin, light taps to keep head up. Repeat command "Hold"

Gradually move hands away and praise for short periods of success.

"NO!" For a drop, place back in mouth, tap under chin. "Hold"

Tap under chin for any rolling or sloppy holding.

Work up gradually...once she can sit there for a while with a nice firm hold with no chomping or rolling then start to move..."here" "heel" etc.

Once you can go through obedience work with a nice hold then you move to FF...

 

[Mike Perry]

Find a pro to do it for you. Get someone who has done several at least. It's worth a couple months training fees to get it right. If the pro is local. watch how it is done and then your next one you can do it on your own.
Th DVD's do not show how to solve problems. All of the ones that I have seen show dogs that are FF'ed already and don't show how to fix issues such as sloppy hold, clamming, freezing etc. The PC climate we live in today won't support sales of DVD's that show the trainer fixing issues that can arise in the process.
MP

 

[Bryan Parks]

Find a pro to do it for you. Get someone who has done several at least. It's worth a couple months training fees to get it right. If the pro is local. watch how it is done and then your next one you can do it on your own.
Th DVD's do not show how to solve problems. All of the ones that I have seen show dogs that are FF'ed already and don't show how to fix issues such as sloppy hold, clamming, freezing etc. The PC climate we live in today won't support sales of DVD's that show the trainer fixing issues that can arise in the process.
MP

How is anyone going to learn if they always pay a pro?

If you do use a pro then see if they will teach you.

That would probably be the perfect scenario if you want to learn to train your dog yourself.

 

[Dogguy123]

A couple questions..

How good is "sit"? Does the dog move around when you are teaching "Hold"?

Obedience should be solid first so you aren't fighting the dog to be still and you can praise a good response.

Have the dog sit, place object in mouth with hand under chin, light taps to keep head up.

Gradually move hands away and praise for short periods of success.

"NO!" For a drop, place back in mouth, tap under chin.

Tap under chin for any rolling or sloppy holding.

Work up gradually...once she can sit there for a while with a nice firm hold with no chomping or rolling then start to move..."here" "heel" etc.

Once you can go through obedience work with a nice hold then you move to FF...

Thanks Brian def. going to do this. What do I do if she turns her head away just re adjust her head and keep tapping under chin?

 

[Dogguy123]

Find a pro to do it for you. Get someone who has done several at least. It's worth a couple months training fees to get it right. If the pro is local. watch how it is done and then your next one you can do it on your own.
Th DVD's do not show how to solve problems. All of the ones that I have seen show dogs that are FF'ed already and don't show how to fix issues such as sloppy hold, clamming, freezing etc. The PC climate we live in today won't support sales of DVD's that show the trainer fixing issues that can arise in the process.
MP

Find a pro to do it for you. Get someone who has done several at least. It's worth a couple months training fees to get it right. If the pro is local. watch how it is done and then your next one you can do it on your own.
Th DVD's do not show how to solve problems. All of the ones that I have seen show dogs that are FF'ed already and don't show how to fix issues such as sloppy hold, clamming, freezing etc. The PC climate we live in today won't support sales of DVD's that show the trainer fixing issues that can arise in the process.
MP

How is anyone going to learn if they always pay a pro?

If you do use a pro then see if they will teach you.

That would probably be the perfect scenario if you want to learn to train your dog yourself.

Thanks for the input guys!!
Honestly I have a great basic program and my grandfather taught me a lot! Sorry if I didn’t mention it I have lotsa trick for fixing fetch and heel and sit but he never showed me anything for hold lol! I just need to redo break it down and really focus on getting that hold solid! Thanks so much for everyone’s help!!!!!

 

[Bryan Parks]

A couple questions..

How good is "sit"? Does the dog move around when you are teaching "Hold"?

Obedience should be solid first so you aren't fighting the dog to be still and you can praise a good response.

Have the dog sit, place object in mouth with hand under chin, light taps to keep head up.

Gradually move hands away and praise for short periods of success.

"NO!" For a drop, place back in mouth, tap under chin.

Tap under chin for any rolling or sloppy holding.

Work up gradually...once she can sit there for a while with a nice firm hold with no chomping or rolling then start to move..."here" "heel" etc.

Once you can go through obedience work with a nice hold then you move to FF...

Thanks Brian def. going to do this. What do I do if she turns her head away just re adjust her head and keep tapping under chin?

PM sent.

I would control the head by holding the collar if needed and light taps under the chin to keep the head up. I'm not talking about smacking the dog hard under the chin but just firm taps.

If turning the head after the bumper is placed I probably wouldn't address during hold but during the FF process she will learn to reach for the bumper.

Another thing to add to my response on teaching hold is to also teach the release command. I use "out" some use "give"

When you want her to release just lightly grab the rope and do not pull it hard but lightly tug and give the release command. If needed open the mouth with your hand while saying "out".

Work towards a drop with you just holding the rope and not pulling it out of her mouth.

This applies to training throughout her life. Grab a foot, wing or head of the bird, say "out" and dog should release.

Yes, you'll come upon bumps in the road and issues but that's what makes dog training fun.

Think about what you want to teach and how to teach it and if a problem arises think about why the dog is doing it and how to teach it what you want.

Find a knowledgeable trainer to bounce questions off of and you can also use forums like this as long as you can filter through the bad advice and come up with your own plan.

I'm not an expert by any means but I love training my own dogs and the more dogs I train and work through myself the better I'll be. That's not to say I don't call people I trust and use pros to ask question of. I do all the time but when it comes to working with my dogs I want to do it.

There is also no problem with using a pro if that's what someone wants to do or needs to do.

 

[swliszka]

Be consistent, clear and have a direct plan. Write it down if need be. DVDs can not take the place of a knowledgeable mentor to observe what "you" do. We can be our own worst enemy thru ignorance or oversight.

 

[truthseeker]

Hey guys first time posting!
Hopefully I’m in the right place in forum! I do believe so!
Got my first dog in the table and all is well except hold! Her hold is sloppy we are working on it most of the time barely doing fetch! But she wants to let whatever training object I use hang out of mouth and this will be my first hunt test dog so I’m aiming for perfection lol! Anybody have tips to help her hold! (Aiming for her to hold while she ****s lol high standards!) thanks so much guys!!!

Dose she have a loose bite or is she cigaring the bumper?

You can also use search. This issue has been discussed many times.

Keith

 

[captainjack]

I think bill Hillmann says put the bumper in her mouth. If she holds 2 seconds and spits it out, that’s fine. Put it back in. If she spits it out 1000 times, put it back 1001 times.
Be patient, help her, go for a two second hold, then a 4 second hold, praise for tiny successes and take bumper, then do it again. Mix in fun retrieves, walking on lead etc.
I like the Hillmann approach to this rather than forcing the dog to hold. When she’s 80% good on hold, and mature enough, I’d force fetch. Don’t go for 100% so that you’ll have opportunities for correction as you go through FF.

 

[DarrinGreene]

This is another one of those places where retriever training programs really kinda suck from the dog's point of view...

Hold the bumper or I'm gonna bat you in the chin - awesome for the dog.

Drop the bumper and I'm gonna shove it back in your mouth - awesome for the dog.

How about - hold the bumper and I'll let you stop then give you a treat? Once you understand this really, really well, then I'll turn the e-collar on gently and reinforce the behavior that way - but even then - if you bring the bumper to my hand, I'll play "the game" with you and let you chase it again.

Hillmann is about as close as anything I've seen to a really fun, psychologically correct approach to this. I did Graham with my first competition dog, Spencer with my original retriever years ago and I would never do either one again. Both dogs succeeded BTW but the process had to suck from their perspective. I'd be embarrassed to tell anyone I trained that way now.

Make this fun for the dog instead of a chore and it'll go a lot faster.

 

[DarrinGreene]

I have no idea who this is but it's a pretty good representation of positively shaping the behavior BEFORE you add correction/avoidance to it.

We constantly say "you can't correct your dog for things they don't know", "teach, force, reinforce" and other mantras but in a lot of basic stages we don't follow through on our ethos.

Video of border collie learning to carry a basket

For all of you who will see this, turn it off after 30 seconds and say "that's BS" or "why would I take all that time" or "The old way works just fine" - remember it's your dog who has to endure being corrected for things they don't even understand and think about how well you would appreciate that.

 

[truthseeker]

Make this fun for the dog instead of a chore and it'll go a lot faster.[/QUOTE]

I don't know how old your pup is, but if you have started at 6-9 months and are doing formal training. It's just not true.

It takes much longer to do informal training than E- collar. I have no problem with it and if the dog has no bottom. I give this choose, if they want to pay.

Keith

 

[Bryan Parks]

I have no idea who this is but it's a pretty good representation of positively shaping the behavior BEFORE you add correction/avoidance to it.

We constantly say "you can't correct your dog for things they don't know", "teach, force, reinforce" and other mantras but in a lot of basic stages we don't follow through on our ethos.

Video of border collie learning to carry a basket

For all of you who will see this, turn it off after 30 seconds and say "that's BS" or "why would I take all that time" or "The old way works just fine" - remember it's your dog who has to endure being corrected for things they don't even understand and think about how well you would appreciate that.

Sure that'll work but why do all that?

There is no correction by just placing the object in their mouth saying "hold" and teaching it without correction.

I personally also teach "fetch" as a command via Hillmann method before FF.

 

[bamajeff]

How about - hold the bumper and I'll let you stop then give you a treat? Once you understand this really, really well, then I'll turn the e-collar on gently and reinforce the behavior that way - but even then - if you bring the bumper to my hand, I'll play "the game" with you and let you chase it again.

This is pretty much how I teach hold, and I start teaching early(3 or 4 months). I do give a light tap for dropping/mouthing, but they get rewarded for success. Both dogs I've done this way breezed through traditional FF. I think positive and negative feedback are needed for the fastest learning curve.