The Derby National is pretty much a failure when it comes to attendance, qualification, and eligibility. I think a qualifying level national event would be more attended and do more to bring new people into the sport and keep them. Use the points system AA stakes use for qualification but allow dogs to enter who have two wins during the year, Disqualify dogs who place in an AA stake during the year. I think you would get 100+ dogs and give people who focus on that stake another goal to shoot for. It could be an Amateur or owner handler event to benefit the Amateur and avoid having a bunch of pros dominating the entries. What do you think?
How about Qualifying National event?
Sabireley
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I agree that the Qual is generally the entry level FT that people run. But this is normally because those people probably started in HT's and they have a Master title and want to get their feet wet running the Qualifying stake. So, the derby is probably out of the question anyway (due to dog's age).
So, while the Q can certainly help get people to come over from Hunt Tests to field trials, I don't think it actually grows "the sport" in total numbers? For every 10 people that transition to FT from HT, how many FT people retire from training/trialing because of various reasons (dogs age, handlers age, just tired of it, etc etc).
If we really wanted to get new people involved in FT's (whether it be completely new people or people coming from the HT side) wouldn't time and resources be better spent trying to get actual new people involved in field trials from the get go? Like maybe the guy looking for a puppy? or the guy with the puppy and he starts googling how to train it? etc etc.
some ideas---
-Derby/Qual Training Days - maybe a retriever club, or maybe just a training group, putting on bi-annual/quarterly training days that are specifically targeted towards derbies/quals and invite all those hunt test people or people with young dogs to come out and learn and run your dog? "Hey, come run your dog on a qual or derby setup and ask all the questions you want." (HRC clubs do this all the time?)
I would have attended something like to learn the ins and outs and what is required and meet some people! (I'm sure there are clubs that do this somewhere in the country, but I don't hear much about it? Does your club do it? Has it grown your derby/qual entries for your trial?)
- Increased Media - there were basically zero videos on YouTube or Facebook about hunt test or field trials when I started several years ago. That has been picking up recently and I think that is good. (there are definitely some not-so-good videos of people who don't really know what they are doing too...but, that is inevitable) Even just a year ago, I was just looking on the internet to find videos of actual derbies so I would know what to expect and there were like less than 10 videos. I think having more access to that type of video for the newbie or for the curious person wanting to learn more about FT's would go a long way. (just don't show the long hours of throwing birds or watching dogs swim for 20 minutes 🤣)
So, while the Q can certainly help get people to come over from Hunt Tests to field trials, I don't think it actually grows "the sport" in total numbers? For every 10 people that transition to FT from HT, how many FT people retire from training/trialing because of various reasons (dogs age, handlers age, just tired of it, etc etc).
If we really wanted to get new people involved in FT's (whether it be completely new people or people coming from the HT side) wouldn't time and resources be better spent trying to get actual new people involved in field trials from the get go? Like maybe the guy looking for a puppy? or the guy with the puppy and he starts googling how to train it? etc etc.
some ideas---
-Derby/Qual Training Days - maybe a retriever club, or maybe just a training group, putting on bi-annual/quarterly training days that are specifically targeted towards derbies/quals and invite all those hunt test people or people with young dogs to come out and learn and run your dog? "Hey, come run your dog on a qual or derby setup and ask all the questions you want." (HRC clubs do this all the time?)
I would have attended something like to learn the ins and outs and what is required and meet some people! (I'm sure there are clubs that do this somewhere in the country, but I don't hear much about it? Does your club do it? Has it grown your derby/qual entries for your trial?)
- Increased Media - there were basically zero videos on YouTube or Facebook about hunt test or field trials when I started several years ago. That has been picking up recently and I think that is good. (there are definitely some not-so-good videos of people who don't really know what they are doing too...but, that is inevitable) Even just a year ago, I was just looking on the internet to find videos of actual derbies so I would know what to expect and there were like less than 10 videos. I think having more access to that type of video for the newbie or for the curious person wanting to learn more about FT's would go a long way. (just don't show the long hours of throwing birds or watching dogs swim for 20 minutes 🤣)
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yes, that is always the downside. Not owning the land.
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Obviously I misspoke, I should have stated relatively few. Places like Paducah, Cooper Black, and the Cattle Ranch had retriever people involved and willing to do some work, hats off to them. We have come to rely so heavily on privately owned and maintained properties it’s easy to forget the viable public grounds that are available.
But, once upon a time there was Vandeberg AFB, Edwards AFB, Fort Lewis WA, Bong AFB now WMA, Quivira NWR, Bosque del Apache NWR, Hagerman NWR, Tischomingo NWR, Las Vegas NM NWR, Alamosa NWR, and probably quite a few more I don’t remember.
People that lease hunting grounds do not want other people on these grounds in other parts of the year. That might not be where you were going, but the management of the grounds for hunting is year round. Grounds would have to be procured year round for training and thats hard to come by when the hunters usually have deeper pockets.
We had one here that the owner allowed us to use for a long time. Until the money got so good that he had to parcel it off and now its barely enough land to run on anymore.
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To answer your leasing question, yes I'd be willing to pay for a lease, depends on a lot of variables but in principle yes. Our problem in Northern Colorado is water. We've got literally no current, dog access, public lands with usable water. A couple of marginal public use ponds at best, nasty water late in the summer. Dog owners/pros with land around here are under immense pressure from amateurs to train on their property. While I fall in this category of amateur, I understand land owners concerns of overuse. Tough situation all around. One big pro retired sold the property and is no longer available for trials. Available limited properties are used for multiple trials. It's only getting worse with development. I don't have any answers nor do I think there are any easy ones. As far as acquiring land, I believe that to be cost prohibitive. That also doesn't necessarily include water.
Can you no longer use stillroven or teal Lodge for training
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I heard that Teal lodge will not support dog events in a year or 2??? Also by mid summer Stillroven is difficult to use as the grass is usually talller than the dogs and they don't mow it.
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There are several venues that siphon off folks. Hunt tests, HRC, SRS are all high level dog games that aren't field trials. It takes a very talented dog and either a pro trainer or an amateur with tons of free time and ability to play in the All-Age world. That is as it should be. The AA game is for bettering the breed and it has done that over the last 50 years. Having said that only a handful of folks are willing to spend the money and time to go get their teeth kicked in 10 or 12 weekends a year.
The Qualifying trial is a fantastic place for amateurs to compete. There is a big range of talent in both handler and dogs at these events and the set ups can vary widely. I hear "This was the AM test 2 weeks ago but they retired one more gun" pretty often.
I have a QA2 dog and yes I paid for the title lol. Don't care. First FT dog. She's running AMs now and has made it to the WB about a 1/3 of the time. Our plan is to work on that this summer and run hard this fall. She would be the perfect dog for an National Qual event and it would be a great experience. Would I drive to say Sedalia MO to run a FT? Nope but I probably would to run a National Q.
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Losing grounds in an area already struggling with grounds is a big blow to the Colorado circuit. Saratoga WY, Tie Siding WY, Cherylon‘s in Wellington, Louie’s in Fort Collins, and Granby all gone.
It's been so long that I had to reach back in the memory bank. To add to your list.
Turnbull NWR, home of the 1st National (1966) I viewed, great grounds World Class Dust, lost when Tom Foley was defeated.
Ft. Lewis, a victim of Generals no longer being hunters.
Nine Pipes in MT is still in use for the fall trial. The local clubs use Warm Springs out of Anaconda.
Other than Ft Lewis they are all neat to run as they are clean grounds.
SEWRC is Scooteney Reservoir & surrounding grounds. Mostly BoR sites, home of 1986? National. Great trial with mostly dinky well designed tests.
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Good water, good land and lots of both are tremendous training assets. Good people to train with is an even better asset.
I see people with all of the above that still don't do well and it is because of how they train.
An amateur running one or two dogs and expecting to be in the color at every event probably won't enjoy the sport much.
I am running two dogs this weekend and hoping for blue and red. If I don't get that (or even if I do) I'll try to figure out what I can do to improve. To me that is the most enjoyable and interesting part of the sport.
I see people with all of the above that still don't do well and it is because of how they train.
An amateur running one or two dogs and expecting to be in the color at every event probably won't enjoy the sport much.
I am running two dogs this weekend and hoping for blue and red. If I don't get that (or even if I do) I'll try to figure out what I can do to improve. To me that is the most enjoyable and interesting part of the sport.
Or you could do like most & come on to this panel of experts, post
your issue, receive high value input & have the issue solved quickly.
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I’m going to chime in here!! Perhaps the reason you don’t see a huge Gallery/people in attendance is they are out working in the Field? The people chiming in with their “opinions” I’m going to assume have never volunteered, and I mean, really volunteered on a NRC or NARC event. It doesn’t just take a week out of your summer. Finding grounds, water, Bird Throwers, Gunners todays is overwhelming for Clubs. The best way to get an idea of what it takes to put on a National is to volunteer, not just one day one year. Get Involved!
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I would not advertise that.
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If the current drought continues is that likely to change?
Good post. From my limited experience, all very true.
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Thanks
I didn't get red and blue or any other color last weekend.
Out in the first with Jake. A little bad luck plus I didn't take enough time letting him focus at the line.
My not quite 15 month old Lily made it to the last series of the Am. First to run the water marks and got a no bird, not helpful but that's how it goes.
Then I had to handle but didn't do it soon enough and was asked to honor on lead.
Pretty rewarding just making it to the last series. As a bonus, her mama won it!
We will have fun training and be better prepared next time.🤞
Good job by the judges and everyone involved.
Somewhat to the original topic; there was a Q but it was on Friday and I didn't want to go a day early just for that.
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