Because everyone hates invites to Farmville ;-) Sorry, couldn't help it.

 

Some of it may have to do with the limit on dogs per handler. I know the pros do not like that and like it or not they bring lots of dogs to the AKC masters.

Russell

 

it seems to be all over not just one area. there could be many reasons, the price of gas to get there, people that have the resources to do this are getting older, finished seems to do ok but started and seasoned seem to be low. could be people skip these and go to finished. but I have looked at akc hunt tests and they seem to have low numbers in jr and sr, master seems to fill up.in our area the weather sucks so training is hard to do.

 

After this weekend this is what I think.
HRC needs to get back to the grass roots of their slogan "Conceived by Hunters For hunters". It seems that the amateur gets judged harder than the pro!! I say this as a Pro. And the standard isn't the standard that it was 5 years ago. I will say this that with the reputation that HRC is getting on the east coast or mid atlantic region it will be next to impossible to have a Successful HRC event. The key to success is interested members and entries. If the intreset in HRC goes down because the test are impossible to pass with and average dog then we have lost all hope in getting an established hunt test in the state of Virginia. We already have 3 clubs in a two hour window that struggle with entries. You know maybe judging with a slightly less sharp pencil wouldn't be a bad thing. Our Started and Seasoned flights were perfect had a few fail but there was no doubt. Our Finished has a pass rate of 9% on Sunday. Now were the dogs that bad or were the judges that tough or Maybe the 10 dogs that entered weren't ready even tough (6 were MH or had MH passes).

So basically if we weed out the amateur and make it an unpleasurable experience why in the world would he or she pay 130 for entries plus give up a weekend and pay 200+ for expenses.

 

Right on, could not agree more.
JT

 

Didn't you have the same judges Sat and Sun? AKC tests have shots from the gunner station. MHs have to learn to mark of the gun. Not hard to teach but if a dog does not swing and see the mark he is going to have a hard time picking it up. How many finished entries did you end up with each day?

 

On the heels of the Grand and if you're going to use EE you need to get the word out to clubs and members in the region. One of the clubs in my region went to EE this year and I missed scheduling their test and entered an AKC instead.
On the HRC calendar there was no mention of EE

 

No comment on the Virginia area. Locally, HRC seems alive and well. 2 tests within driving distance & both are full in Finished on Mothers Day weekend. DAH waited until the last minute & is running Finished Sunday only. Will be there Saturday also running 1 dog in Seasoned.

 

DAH betta be running in FAIRHOPE....

 

If, as stated in the original post, this was the club's FIRST test, low numbers could be attributed to people not being familiar with the club, not expecting a test in that place on that weekend, and particularly not knowing about the test because it was on EE and not Hunt Secretary. If publicity for next year's test is better and the numbers are still low, then you might have something to worry about. From what I've seen, it can take a couple of years for a new event to really get going.

 

HRC folks tend to expect HRC events to be posted on HuntSecretary.com. HRC is alive and well and thriving in our area. Bay Area will likely be full in Finished, Seasoned and Started for this weekend. Music City will no doubt be full as well. Frankly, the same folks run AKC and HRC (and some FT's, too) for the most part. Its all dogs having fun picking up chickens.

 

I would not expect to look on EE for HRC hunt test so that may have been an attributing factor. I dont check EE for HRC but I will start now

 

Will,
You bring up good points. I agree with you that in that it is surprising that MH dogs did not pass Finished tests in that number. I ran HRC finished two weekends this spring and the tests difficulty varied greatly.

As a "newbie" running one dog, hunt tests in general are not friendly to the amateur. It involves a bunch of sit and wait.

We discussed attending your test, but with the Grand just completed, it just did not happen. I think your next test will be better attended.

The HRC's inconsistency in how you register for a hunt test is also a factor. In HRC, Hunt Secretary is a pain. Having to sign up for every day individually, etc. Not to mention some clubs still using paper entries only.

In AKC entry express is it. It is also a very good system, particularly of you have multiple dogs.

Just my two cents,
NCShooter

 

In Florida HRC is bleeding bad. NEFHRC had 20 finished, 7 seasoned, and 4 started.

CFHRC did ok, BUT they held their test in combination with an AKC test. 40 finished, 26 seasoned, and 20 started. The year before they cancelled because of low entries. In 2012 they had they had 26 finished dogs. This is also the HRC Presidents home club.

Our test, TCHRC had 12 finished, 6 seasoned, and 6 started dogs. Training days have more dogs running. This may have been the end of HRC for us. We will be discussing it thoroughly because this is at least the fifth year that our entry's just don't justify the cost of running a test. We lost money and that is just bad business. My personal vote is going to be to hold another FT, HT, or combination of the two rather than invest the money and effort to hold a HRC test.

 

BBG: My experience with AKC and HRC in Florida was interesting. One particular AKC club, which will remain nameless, was not welcoming at all, never announced training days, were secretive about the process to use their training grounds and tried to steer new members to working HT instead of participating for at least a year. I think this was due to the over-subscription of the HT for AKC and they wanted to save spots for their "core group".

The HRC people by contrast were really friendly and encouraging new people to participate. This may have to do with what you said about their events being less than 100% full.

 

Will:

I have been vocal on this issue for quite some time. I believe strongly that HRC is suffering declining entries can be partially attributed to a move away from its core constituency. The HRC was designed to serve the guy with one dog looking for a better hunting companion, not the serious dog trainer and certainly not as a minor league to the Grand. Unfortunately recent leadership has developed an inferiority complex and has done everything it can to drive the organization to emulate the AKC HT program, something it will never successfully accomplish on a nationwide basis for a variety of reasons. Any dissent has been firmly suppressed, and God forbid you should criticize the Grand.

Recent FUBARS have exacerbated the situation and driven people from the program.

As a judge, I have been 'encouraged' to set tests with the emphasis on conventional training and less as an evaluation of a hunting dog. This to some degree has pushed the tests away from the guy who trains once or twice a week and into of the realm of the serious trainer and of the professional. Over the last year or so, I have judged a number of finished tests in the Carolinas, Virginia, Tennessee and Georgia. At almost every test, I have judged nearly full finished flights where the I might have 3-4 pros with 20+ dogs and 3 -4 amateurs frequently with multiple dogs. At the ribbon ceremonies and the wonderful dinners hosted by these clubs the attendance is very poor compared to other areas I have judged. Except for one spectacular exception. the seasoned tests and started tests have been very poorly attended. This tells me the amateur is staying away. The big question is why.

I do not think for one instant the loss of the amateur is due solely to the type of tests being offered, but it sure doesn't help.

One major handicap facing the HRC is the transiency of it core market. The AKC attracts serious trainers who have made it a major part of their lifestyle. AKC titles carry far more weight with a majority of the puppy markets. The original target constituency for the HRC was the guy with one dog for whom dog training was all part of the greater activity of waterfowling (and to a degree upland hunting). Unfortunately these people seem to stay as long as they need to reach the desired levels with their dog and then drift away. HRC seems to have a few diehards in each club. These members must continually recruit new members in the hope they can groom a few new 'diehards' to go along with the transients before the core burns itself out. Clubs that fail in this recruiting seem to die on the vine once the core burns itself out. Attracting new members is that much harder when the tests lose relevancy.

I think the HRC is misguided trying to offer itself as an alternative to the serious dog trainer, especially in a tight economy. In many areas it has driven away its core without replacing the core with its coveted participants. Critics of my position point to the 400+ dog attendance as evidence of their success. I posit this is proof of my position as 90+% are pro handled. The MN by comparison has a higher percentage of amateur handlers. Valid criticism of the Grand by knowledgeable trainers point to the unevenness of the judging and the over emphasis on line behavior as a criteria for an elite hunting dog. Less value placed on the hunting ability of the dog and more emphasis on precision lines and precision marking are more in line with field trial standards than evaluating hunting dogs.

The HRC as initially envisioned served a very valuable role to the dog sport as a whole. It provided an additional portal for those only tangentially interested in training their dogs to the greater world of advanced retriever training. Those who no longer were satisfied with the quirks and informal HRC attitude can move along to greater challenges in the FT world or the typically more technical AKC tests.

This is my opinion but I think it is shared in some form or another by many long time HRC participants who are very concerned by the current direction of the HRC.

 

All very valid points. I started in HRC decades ago and never even looked at an AKC test because for me it was about hunting retrievers. I can't put my finger on it, but it is not the same as it once was. I will still run it with the pup I am getting in a week, but I will do it because I enjoy running as much as I can regardless of the venue not because I love HRC. One of the big problems, as you pointed out to some extent, is that the majority of people do not put much weight into HRC titles and furthermore many see UKC as a minor registry and some even see it as poor excuse for a registry because it registers breeds AKC doesn't recognize. Combine this with the ever tightening dollar and people run where they get the biggest bang for the buck.
I have only run one Grand and it was a blast, however, the focus on line manners just shocked me. I had heard the rumors of how tight it was but I had no idea (we had no line issues). While I understand and agree that a hunting dog needs to be well behaved in the blind, they took it to am extreme. It just seems to go against the core values of what HRC once stood for. I do not see myself running another grand for this reason and for the reason above. My limited dollars are, IMHO, better spent chasing the MN.

Well said Stu. Back in 2004-2006 Rebel and I were going to a lot of HRC tests going for 500 points. We travelled all over the south east doing it. I see very little of that any more. Owners/trainers/handlers get the HRCH then go to AKC for MH and I think many just don't come back to run for points. What is the point? The AKC MH and MNH title do carry more weight and seem to be more recognizable to the general public as far as breeding goes.
And I think there is still and will continue to be a back lash from a certain % that remember the Tommy Landers Grand, Claudene's departure and all of the silence that went with it, and the publicity debacle of the last election. As in all things, people do have a choice.
JMHO
MP

Mike, you touch on more issues. HRC seems to have a number of issues and much of it is growing pains. HRC has been around forever and forever they have done things old school. They were late to the electronic entry party and when they did finally give up the snail mail (not sure they have completely) they decided they needed to be different than the others and use hunt test secretary. That is fine and good, but as a business you want to be as mainstream as possible. I would go out on a limb and say there are more people who run both AKC and HRC than those who run only HRC. Many of the folks that run both have no idea what hunt test secretary is. I promise you half the people that ran our last test have never heard of HTS.
I believe that HRC has some good people in leadership roles in that they want to do the right thing for HRC. The problem is that currently HRC is a poorly run business as you point out in your examples. They have a tough task ahead of them to pull people back in. A huge problem with that is many are so set in their belief that HRC is perfect they cannot see the problems or issues that do exist. I think a lot of people stay away because of the camo issue. People just want to run their dogs, not play dress up. I don't so much have a problem with camo, but this is another issue that varies from judge to judge. I have run test in HRC without a scrap of camo and I have also been sent off the line because I had running shoes on. That is the kind of stuff that chases people away. I have a friend who has hair white as snow. She came to the line with a black hat on. The judges made her take if off. Instead of having a black hat on she stood there with her white hair blowing in the wind. Do you know what that does in terms of keeping someone active in the organization? There is a huge amount of "we don't need to change, you do" in HRC and it is a turn off to many. I am not saying to compromise your values, but you must balance that with common sense and you must remember that people pay to run their dogs, not to be humiliated for their dress. I am sure some of the diehards will eventually post here telling everyone that there is nothing wrong with HRC and we are just haters. That only serves to alienate people further.

 

Well said Stu. Back in 2004-2006 Rebel and I were going to a lot of HRC tests going for 500 points. We travelled all over the south east doing it. I see very little of that any more. Owners/trainers/handlers get the HRCH then go to AKC for MH and I think many just don't come back to run for points. What is the point? The AKC MH and MNH title do carry more weight and seem to be more recognizable to the general public as far as breeding goes.
And I think there is still and will continue to be a back lash from a certain % that remember the Tommy Landers Grand, Claudene's departure and all of the silence that went with it, and the publicity debacle of the last election. As in all things, people do have a choice.
JMHO
MP

 

Corey, can you expand on the line manners part of your post?

I didn't get to go to the Mid Atlantic test as I was already entered in SC. I also didn't know about HTS, which is probably why I haven't found more tests. As to camo, I guess I'm going to have to expand my wardrobe if I do more with HRC. I'd like to try it out. Not for the titles but for the fun of working with my dogs....

 

Just very strict on getting your dog to the line and what they expect at the line. It is kind of ironic in that I have hunted all my life and have seldom seen a dog walk at heel like a robot while afield or walking to a hunting blind. Funny too because the HRC knock on AKC dogs was that they wanted "mechanical" dogs in AKC.

 

I train with and am member of our local HRC club but can honestly say I have never run any of my dogs ( ran others) other than test dog. I do have one that I may start running in a few finished tests but the Master and Qual. are more appealing to me. The Camo Natzi and no flyers kind of turns me off, more so the no flyer than anything else, if I'm going to pay $75.00 for an entry I want a live bird. It really bugs me when I have to go gas 100 perfectly good ducks the night before rather than shoot them as flyers seems like a waste to me..

 

if I'm going to pay $75.00 for an entry I want a live bird. It really bugs me when I have to go gas 100 perfectly good ducks the night before rather than shoot them as flyers seems like a waste to me..

I agree, still if you want a live flyer in your HRC test come to southern CA, we've never had a finished test without one, a trend we moved to seasoned this last test, and if our rule change proposal gets a nod, hopefully an option in our started test in the coming years. Flyer should be a Club-Judge option for all stakes; a hunting dog should be able to handle a crippled bird at any level of training period, otherwise they are not a useful conversational tool. (I can pick up dead ducks myself, wounded ones I need a dog for) HRC is still growing out west, there are 3-4 new clubs all over the nation in the last few months. We do have an issue with lower entries, but it enables us to put on very nice-friendly test, just got to make sure to watch the pennies; and we make a bit of money or at least break even. But making $ is not the real point of running a test, nor is it the point of a club; the point of both these things is to offer people an opportunity to get out an train/run/enjoy their dogs.

 

This dream of having hunters get involved just doesn't seem realistic. A hunt test doesn't make a hunting dog better. And who is going to pay 240.00 in entry fees plus travel to put a SHR title on a hunting dog? If you make it easier the title is going to lose it's value completely and I think you will be worse off. I think the solution is too appeal to the competitive handler but continue with the direction of being more realistic.

1. Get the grand under control. This 15% pass rate is crazy low and it is all about getting dogs out rather then judging work. I am sure that some HRC die hard is going to rip me for that but that is the way many of us feel. Why work in HRC if you know you don't want to go to the grand.
2. Require Finished passes to go to the grand each year, 4 or 2 if you passed the Grand last year.
3. Create a competitive level. IE steal the SRS concept. It would offer the HT guy an outlet where he would have to train for 400 yard marks and white coats. Also only HRCH and GRHRCH can enter. No mark over 200 yard. Throw quads, remote sits ect.....
4. Formalize the 500 goals with a HRCHX title.

Things like this to give the guy who likes to run dogs a reason to come to the weekend hunt.

 

 

I agree mike, the same discussions always come up. I dropped out of the club I was a member of for a couple of reasons. I've also got a group that want to start our own club but doubt we could get hrc affiliation so we are thinking about akc only instead of dual.

 

Even knowing I could go sign up the day of- and with a half dozen HRC test a year within 2 hours if me I haven't yet gotten a wild hair. No fliers, and too much bs at the line. Those are really the only reasons I have never participated.

 

No fliers, and too much bs at the line. .

So standing at the line pointing a stick is better ? I could careless about a flyer. My dogs get that during hunting season.

 

Nate you make some excellent suggestions and as a HRC diehard I am certainly not going to rip you for your comments about the Grand. However, I will take issue with your initial comments:

This dream of having hunters get involved just doesn't seem realistic

This is how HRC started, how it grew and how it sustained in parts of the country today.

A hunt test doesn't make a hunting dog better

But training for an attainable title in a fun way does.

And who is going to pay 240.00 in entry fees plus travel to put a SHR title on a hunting dog?

I know I spent a lot more to put a JH on my dog before I knew of the existence of HRC. Almost every time I judge started, I meet a hunter new to the games. Handing people like that a ribbon and seeing the sense of accomplishment and pride in their dog is priceless and reminds me of when I started.
Better yet see a youngster pass a test with his or her owned and trained dog is at the core of why I judge.

If you make it easier the title is going to lose it's value completely

Never said anything about making it easier, just attainable (and relevant). This could justify a thread all and of itself. Place more value on a dog's ability to dig a bird out of a situation rather than the line he takes to get there. More testing emphasis on the teamwork, less on finding fault etc.... etc. As to value..... to whom? Many serious trainers view their titles as 'badges of honor' redeemable for bragging rights and higher priced puppies or stud fees justified as 'improving the breed'. I cannot speak for others, but the HRC titles my dogs have earned are mementos of our journey. Their value is to me alone. Now if I ever am skilled and privileged enough to win a blue ribbon.... Hey I am bragging to every corner of the Globe!!!!!!

I think the solution is too appeal to the competitive handler but continue with the direction of being more realistic.

I think the AKC is doing a fantastic job of this BTW I think the tests are becoming far less realistic than they used to be.

 

Nate, clean out your PM's.

The pass rate this spring was 11%. That's all I say. Already on the blacklist for comments about the "tricks" in the last two Grands, wouldn't want to find out if there is another list!!

 

Want to increase attendance?

Have girls in bikinis throwing birds and a free beer tent in the gallery. Problem solved

 

that's logical next step from SRS. like WWE, its not a sport- its "sports entertainment"

 

Beer would be nice at the events!!!

 

No beer? Count bubba and I out

/Paul

 

I'm judging Finished at Music City HRC this weekend. They have 2 flights of Started, 2 flights of Seasoned and 2 full flights of Finished. They wanted to add 1 or 2 more Finished flights, but couldn't find judges (burn out from the Grand last week). Last May, Music City had 6 full Finished flights. I'm also judging at Old Hatchie next weekend and they have 3 Finished flights. I'd say attendance is still pretty good in some areas.
We had 3 full Finished flights at Charleston in March as well.