[Mike Boufford]

... Compared to most of the AKC people I have trained with, HRC training methods were too often a step back in time. Compared to AKC tests, in the name of hunting, HRC will have setups that you will, in all probability, never see in any AKC test. My opinion of this is, you need a truly finished hunting companion either as a master or finished dog to complete these type of tests. For instance, I want to see tests that encourage marking not handling. You will also get things in a seasoned test that definately belong in Finsihed or Master only. This can be a set back in the natural progression of a training program. That is why I say play the AKC game. Except go run a Started or two. It is a great place to get your dog acclimated with the whole lots of dogs, guns, and birds thing. Then concentrate on AKC JH and SH. Once you have passed Senior, go to Finished and/or Master.

This is so far off the mark it's actually comical.

 

[Steve Hester]

There are many good reasons to choose AKC or HRC. Many stated previously. I now will run only AKC until I am at a level where my dog would be ready to run Master.
These are the reasons. Titles show on AKC pedigress, the registry used most frequently. Time for everything is limited. The other reason is training. I have run a fun HRC test and a real HRC test and trained with an HRC group for a time. This covers two different parts of the country. Compared to most of the AKC people I have trained with, HRC training methods were too often a step back in time. Compared to AKC tests, in the name of hunting, HRC will have setups that you will, in all probability, never see in any AKC test. My opinion of this is, you need a truly finished hunting companion either as a master or finished dog to complete these type of tests. For instance, I want to see tests that encourage marking not handling. You will also get things in a seasoned test that definately belong in Finsihed or Master only. This can be a set back in the natural progression of a training program. That is why I say play the AKC game. Except go run a Started or two. It is a great place to get your dog acclimated with the whole lots of dogs, guns, and birds thing. Then concentrate on AKC JH and SH. Once you have passed Senior, go to Finished and/or Master.

I belong to an HRC club. We train together for HRC tests, AKC tests, and we have dogs that run both venues. We have dogs at all levels in both venues, including Grand Hunting Retriever Champions and Master Hunters. HRC and AKC are different, but both can easily be trained for at the same time. Both venues are still just dogs picking up stuff, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[brandywinelabs]

Tried not to write a long letter. Will do so later today with explanation. You won't think it "comical" later!
I tried to be somewhat vague on purpose!

 

[David McLendon]

Tried not to write a long letter. Will do so later today with explanation. You won't think it "comical" later!
I tried to be somewhat vague on purpose!

Based on your short version, I'm sure it will be enlightening.

 

[dixiedog]

Heck last week we used a PINK fake gun in an AKC Master test.
O by the way HRC does use fliers at times

I thought flyers were required in a MH test. At least EVERY one that I have run has had one.
As someone that has run both MH & Finished tests, I would have to say that MH passes are significantly harder to come by than Finished passes. First of all, you have much greater distances on marks in MH tests, twice the number of marks, you can only handle once on a mark, and twice the number of blinds. Also, the pass rate in Finished tests seems to at least 50% at the tests that I have been to. On the other hand, I have only seen 50% of the entered dogs pass one time in a MH test. As far as steadiness, the shots in the field (with blanks) seem to be louder (to me) than the poppers used in the HRC.

I do like both HRC & AKC, and will continue to run both.

 

[Bill Davis]

I thought flyers were required in a MH test. At least EVERY one that I have run has had one.
As someone that has run both MH & Finished tests, I would have to say that MH passes are significantly harder to come by than Finished passes. First of all, you have much greater distances on marks in MH tests, twice the number of marks, you can only handle once on a mark, and twice the number of blinds. Also, the pass rate in Finished tests seems to at least 50% at the tests that I have been to. On the other hand, I have only seen 50% of the entered dogs pass one time in a MH test. As far as steadiness, the shots in the field (with blanks) seem to be louder (to me) than the poppers used in the HRC.

I do like both HRC & AKC, and will continue to run both.

Please show us the stats to support your theory concerning Master Titles are significantly harder to get then a Finished title. Since I just got back into running AKC, so far for my dogs I have passed 3/3 with one dog and 2/3 with the other in Master test. And to be honest about it the test were a heck of a lot easier.
Come on where do you get that you can only handle on one mark in AKC? I have ran test where dogs have handled on more then one mark and have passed, just as I have seen dogs handle on two marke in Finished and pass.
So you are saying in Master you have 12 marks since you can have 6 in Finished, and 4 blinds in Masters as there are 2 in Finished. I got shorted on my blinds the last Master test I ran...Distances in Master are shorter then Finished per the rule book. Only in Master they are only a suggested maximum distance (100yds) where as Finished they can be no further (150 Yds).
I have been to Master test with a 94% pass rate. As far as pass % all in all they appear to be about equal. You'll have judges in both pass a lot of dogs and judges that really judge to the standards which in turn may have a lower pass rate.
What difference does the loudness of a popper in the field and a primer load at the line have to do with Steadyness?

 

[Bill Davis]

Tried not to write a long letter. Will do so later today with explanation. You won't think it "comical" later!
I tried to be somewhat vague on purpose!

I can hardly wait for this....................

 

[dixiedog]

Please show us the stats to support your theory concerning Master Titles are significantly harder to get then a Finished title.
I have been to Master test with a 94% pass rate. As far as pass % all in all they appear to be about equal.

Please remember that I said I run & enjoy both Finished & MH tests, but the pass rates are not the same...

HRC Finished pass rate for the 8 most recent tests listed on Entryexpress.net
10/27 Muddy Waters RC
16/26 Muddy Waters RC
5/11 Essex HRC
5/8 Long Island
8/9 Long Island
16/21 Coastal Empire
15/21 Coastal Empire
25/30 SW Missouri

out of the 1st 4 HRC HT's listed on EE: 75 out of 123 dogs passed Finished tests

Total Pass Rate=65.3%


AKC MH pass rate for the 8 most recent tests listed on EE:

5/16 Fairbanks RC
13/27 Great Western Flat-Coated Retriever
15/33 Shoreline RC
32/55 Mid-Iowa RC
17/42 Central Minn RC
17/43 Central Minn RC
8/19 Treasure State RC
5/15 Fairbanks RC

out of the 1st 8 AKC HT's listed on EE: 112 out of 250 dogs passed MH tests

Total Pass Rate=44.8%

 

[TestDawg]

Please remember that I said I run & enjoy both Finished & MH tests, but the pass rates are not the same...

HRC Finished pass rate for the 8 most recent tests listed on Entryexpress.net
10/27 Muddy Waters RC
16/26 Muddy Waters RC
5/11 Essex HRC
5/8 Long Island
8/9 Long Island
16/21 Coastal Empire
15/21 Coastal Empire
25/30 SW Missouri

out of the 1st 4 HRC HT's listed on EE: 75 out of 123 dogs passed Finished tests

Total Pass Rate=65.3%


AKC MH pass rate for the 8 most recent tests listed on EE:

5/16 Fairbanks RC
13/27 Great Western Flat-Coated Retriever
15/33 Shoreline RC
32/55 Mid-Iowa RC
17/42 Central Minn RC
17/43 Central Minn RC
8/19 Treasure State RC
5/15 Fairbanks RC

out of the 1st 8 AKC HT's listed on EE: 112 out of 250 dogs passed MH tests

Total Pass Rate=44.8%

Only problem I see with these HRC numbers is the lack of "walkup" entries. Essex had over 20 dogs in Finished. The HR magazine would have the actual entry numbers and the number of passes.

 

[Ken Newcomb]

And Chris wanted to know if there was an ELITIST problem on this board.

 

[brandywinelabs]

Perhaps I should have said that I tried to be vague. Well for good reason.
I toyed with not posting this because of the can of worms it would open.
But here goes. These issues are real and not arguable to me.

I write this based on my HRC experiences in multiple parts of the country. It does not mean that you will have the same experiences. And it does not mean that you will not have similar experiences with an AKC group or club. Perhaps it is just my bad luck to have run into these situations. You can get bad tests in AKC, and be associated with bad AKC training groups. Comparatively speaking, I have found a profound difference and will basically stick to AKC.

Here are some of the reasons I will avoid HRC Seasoned tests. One Seasoned test I ran had both marks in a straight line. If it wasn’t a straight line, it was extremely close. We’d be splitting hairs here. Then the blind was run on the same line. This was a Seasoned test. Another instance was when the HRC rep, at a Seasoned test I was at, and he was right in doing so, had a discussion with the judges about the test. My 10.5 yr old dog with MH passes and the rep’s dog were the only two to pass the test. Granted you can get bad tests in AKC. But, I haven’t found the extreme there. Just to qualify, my 10.5 yr old girl did not finish her MH because I had to leave the game for quite a while. As an aside, the last time I saw that many birds on one line was in an AKC MH test judged by two HRC judges. It was quite some time ago but as I remember, it was a fun test. And the concept belonged in Master or Finished. It had 7 birds and we picked up three or 4 birds placed on the same line. Of those, two were the same mark thrown at different times.

Training. And this is not comical! And I am being nice with the wording here. I have seen multiple strictly HRC pros, regarded highly by the HRC people in the area, with a transmitter in hand abusing dogs. Abusing them by means other than the collar, for what should be a simple collar correction for one of the big no-nos. Too often I have also seen abusive corrections from HRC amateurs. I have seen training where they teach the dogs to go to old falls on a marks (guess that goes with the seasoned test above). And that was in a different part of the country from where the test I described was. That doesn’t mean that you won’t see any of this in an AKC group or test. I reiterate, comparatively speaking, I have found a profound difference and will basically stick to AKC.

The seasoned test described above, and some others I have seen, pretty much speaks to the issue of encouraging handling on marks

With these experiences, what would your opinion be?

Just remember I did not say to avoid the HRC. Run Started. Run AKC JH and SH. Run Finished, MH and the Qual. In your training group look for fairness, look for consistency, look for adherence to accepted modern training methods that teach. Those put forth by the Lardy, Graham, Voight, and others.

 

[Ken Newcomb]

So basially you witnessed an illegal Seasoned Test so all HRC Seasoned are stupid and should never be run and you saw a pro that happens to run HRC abuse his dogs so everyone that runs HRC tests is a pathetic human being.

I would venture to guess that you will find some pretty dumb set-ups in AKC as well along with some people that have abused their dogs to the point of getting suspended.

Sounds like a lot of crud to heap on being an HRC problem.

 

[duk4me]

So basially you witnessed an illegal Seasoned Test so all HRC Seasoned are stupid and should never be run and you saw a pro that happens to run HRC abuse his dogs so everyone that runs HRC tests is a pathetic human being.

I would venture to guess that you will find some pretty dumb set-ups in AKC as well along with some people that have abused their dogs to the point of getting suspended.

Sounds like a lot of crud to heap on being an HRC problem.

Reiteration regards and I don't run either.

 

[Bill Davis]

You can't count on entryexpress for the number of dogs in a HRC HT. HRC has no cut off date and most handlers enter after the deadline for entryexpress. Try again....

The test I have judged in HRC the pass rate is near 40%

 

[bjoiner]

Per HRC Magazine April/May 2009 Finished pass rate was 56%.

I can also personally speak for Coastal Empire pass rate. I was a finished judge both days, and that was one of the strongest fields of dogs I have seen. Most were being handled by pros that were running 8 dogs going to the Grand. With that said, I have also noticed a lower number of young finished dog entries in our test. Probably due to the economy. Our HRC finished test pass rate over the past several years runs around 40% or less. A lot of it has to do with the grounds provided. Probably more of it has to do with selecting quality judges. Mark placement (and to a lessor extent blind placement) in HRC or AKC is criticle to setting up quality tests. We don't get cupcake judges at our tests. If our members get wet for a title, they earn it.

On another note. In general, AKC tests are more technical. Usually tighter marks and not as much water cover. Some dogs handle AKC easier than HRC due to no guns at the line. Some dogs do better at HRC. Few dogs, if any, do better in trials.

 

[Bill Davis]

Perhaps I should have said that I tried to be vague. Well for good reason.
I toyed with not posting this because of the can of worms it would open.
But here goes. These issues are real and not arguable to me.

I write this based on my HRC experiences in multiple parts of the country. It does not mean that you will have the same experiences. And it does not mean that you will not have similar experiences with an AKC group or club. Perhaps it is just my bad luck to have run into these situations. You can get bad tests in AKC, and be associated with bad AKC training groups. Comparatively speaking, I have found a profound difference and will basically stick to AKC.

Here are some of the reasons I will avoid HRC Seasoned tests. One Seasoned test I ran had both marks in a straight line. If it wasn’t a straight line, it was extremely close. We’d be splitting hairs here. Then the blind was run on the same line. This was a Seasoned test. Another instance was when the HRC rep, at a Seasoned test I was at, and he was right in doing so, had a discussion with the judges about the test. My 10.5 yr old dog with MH passes and the rep’s dog were the only two to pass the test. Granted you can get bad tests in AKC. But, I haven’t found the extreme there. Just to qualify, my 10.5 yr old girl did not finish her MH because I had to leave the game for quite a while. As an aside, the last time I saw that many birds on one line was in an AKC MH test judged by two HRC judges. It was quite some time ago but as I remember, it was a fun test. And the concept belonged in Master or Finished. It had 7 birds and we picked up three or 4 birds placed on the same line. Of those, two were the same mark thrown at different times.

Training. And this is not comical! And I am being nice with the wording here. I have seen multiple strictly HRC pros, regarded highly by the HRC people in the area, with a transmitter in hand abusing dogs. Abusing them by means other than the collar, for what should be a simple collar correction for one of the big no-nos. Too often I have also seen abusive corrections from HRC amateurs. I have seen training where they teach the dogs to go to old falls on a marks (guess that goes with the seasoned test above). And that was in a different part of the country from where the test I described was. That doesn’t mean that you won’t see any of this in an AKC group or test. I reiterate, comparatively speaking, I have found a profound difference and will basically stick to AKC.

The seasoned test described above, and some others I have seen, pretty much speaks to the issue of encouraging handling on marks

With these experiences, what would your opinion be?

Just remember I did not say to avoid the HRC. Run Started. Run AKC JH and SH. Run Finished, MH and the Qual. In your training group look for fairness, look for consistency, look for adherence to accepted modern training methods that teach. Those put forth by the Lardy, Graham, Voight, and others.

So what you are saying here is that HRC folks abuse their dogs and AKC folks don't. Give me a break....

As far as your discription of the Seasoned test. I kind of have a hard believing a seasoned test was setup that way and a Handler or the FR did not say anything about it. Being that the test was an illegal test....You are taught in the Judges seminar that the marks must seperated by 90 degrees and the Blind must be run from a different line then the Marks

 

[dixiedog]

You can't count on entryexpress for the number of dogs in a HRC HT. HRC has no cut off date and most handlers enter after the deadline for entryexpress. Try again....

I think HRC clubs that use EE have a cut-off. At least, Backwoods HRC used EE for a test last year and that is what their sec'y told me. Either way, even if there were walk-ups, these statistics still hold true for the dogs that were registered before the cut-off.

Either way, I was just using this as an example since you asked for facts earlier.

 

[bjoiner]

As an aside, the last time I saw that many birds on one line was in an AKC MH test judged by two HRC judges.

Obviously these were AKC judges also, running under AKC rules, so AKC should take credit.

 

[bjoiner]

I think HRC clubs that use EE have a cut-off. At least, Backwoods HRC used EE for a test last year and that is what their sec'y told me. Either way, even if there were walk-ups, these statistics still hold true for the dogs that were registered before the cut-off.

Either way, I was just using this as an example since you asked for facts earlier.

Ones that I have run that use EE still accept walkups.

 

[Mike Boufford]

Well like nobody has ever seen abusive behavior coming from AKC trainers. Oh brother, at least you're inventive.

One test does not a rationale make. The hunt test committee should have intervened in this situation and did not. That in itself is a shame.