[paul young]

I think the difference is that bird dog training for Tests and Trials (Pointing breeds) is largely honing natural instincts and abilities to a very high level.

Retriever training is pretty different from that. Most of what we expect in a finished Retriever consists of totally unnatural behaviors which must be taught from the ground up in order to be successful in Tests or Trials.

In both venues, what the dog brings to the table has a large bearing on the degree of success. Both are time and labor intensive activities. -Paul

 

[crackerd]

It's an interesting phenomenon. We tend to stay in our circles and confirmation bias is a real thing. I guess a military K9 trainer's advice would be viewed with skepticism here by most. Unless that trainer applied it to HT/FT dogs and passed or won a bunch of events. The proof is in the pudding.

One problem is that all of us noobs are struck by "the good idea fairy" from time to time. The old hats have probably seen this in 4 iterations over their tenure and know the pitfalls and why it hasn't been incorporated into mainstream retriever training.

This is why a good mentor in real life is so important. And that gets lost on-line.

I grew up around some very, very good bird dog trainers. I watched them, I learned as much as I could about "breaking" pups and handling dogs in FTs. They do a lot of things very differently than the retriever crowd. I think there is some possibility for some technique crossover but I would say both groups are pretty hesitant to engage.

Following on to Paul Young's post above - which I wholly concur with - I would also agree with what you've posited about a hesitance to engage; it seems the silos, much less the twain, shan't meet between retriever trainers and "birddog trainers." (Well, it actually meets at Grand Junction, Tenn., in a way, since the best retrievers and retriever trainers, handlers and assorted other retrieverites (judges, owners, lifetime contributors to the sport) are all inducted into The Birddog Hall of Fame, but that's another story.)

What Paul Young noted about natural and trained behaviors is an omnibus comment for differentiating. And majorly in my opinion is the difference in use of the e-collar between the two sporting dog disciplines - the e-collar has a constructive role in building a FT retriever, whereas birddog terminology for training a pointer to retrieve is "force breaking" (deconstructive connotation), and e-collar use afield can be called "proactive" (i.e., direct pressure, using stimulation without a command proceeding it, "fry 'em to their toes" to bring them back around for casting, etc.). I've mentioned before that Michael Ellis, who many consider to be at the forefront of schutzhund and the bite sports, told a friend "If you really want to see the advances that have been made with the e-collar, go watch a first-rate retriever trainer work with it" - and that was 10 years ago. Wouldn't know if anything has changed with birddog trainers' approach to e-collar use, but do know that I have seen pointing dogs over that same timeframe so "reached-out-and-touched" (jolted) by the e-collar that their head is held ajar to the right or left as they're working a preserve or bird field.

I've got no animosity or disdain for birddog trainers - grew up worshiping a dog staunch on point and that sight, along with steadiness to wing and shot, is still the paragon of canine athleticism in my book - and I'm sure there are great pointer and setter trainers who have adapted over time, and gone as far as they felt necessary with the e-collar innovations to make their dogs more competitive. But there are also - as admittedly same with (some) retriever trainers - those who are "legends" and larger than life only in their own lives who play by the my-way-or-the-highway and wouldn't change a thing in their approach even if so doing would turn out more tractable and less stressed dogs.

MG

 

[Breck]

What county in SE PA?

 

[Qandbennsmom]

What county in SE PA?

I’m in Chester County

 

[Qandbennsmom]

I’m in SE PA.

Northern Piedmont Retriever Club is based in and around the Carlisle area.

Hi, thanks for the thought but that’s an hr an 1/2 away.
So frustrating. I can’t believe we don’t have a club in my county.

 

[Gray_Chin]

^^^
Not for nothing but I routinely travel 1-2 hours to train on good grounds with quality people.

 

[drunkenpoacher]

^^^
Not for nothing but I routinely travel 1-2 hours to train on good grounds with quality people.

So do I and consider myself very fortunate to have knowledgeable, dedicated training friends that close.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

My favorite fields and water and people are also an hour and a half drive one way from my driveway to the meadow. That's the norm got to get used to it.
You've got to pay your dues if your gonna to sing the blues and you know it Don't come easy.

 

[Qandbennsmom]

^^^
Not for nothing but I routinely travel 1-2 hours to train on good grounds with quality people.

It’s just not doable on a regular basis right now.
It’s all good. I’ve got fantastic training grounds in my back yard. I was just hoping I could get someone to guide us.
I’m in the middle of horse country so riding lessons with good trainers are only 1/2hr at most. Guess I was thinking it’d be that way with dogs too but I guess not. 🤷‍♀️I’ll figure something out.

 

[Kenneth Niles Bora]

northern Piedmont is a fine club endear yourself to them and they may have a member or two that lives close to you don't know until you investigate

 

[Breck]

So, you know Dr. Sherman C and rehabbed FCE's. That's a good start. Did you go to Univ Tenn for training by chance? Did you ever hear of a rehab vet named John Sherman? My last dog became a field champion after lots of rehab for FCE.
I can help you with Ches Co and surrounds. Lots an lots of land and water to train on and a few people who train. I haven't had a dog in a few year so not up to speed on who's doing what.

 

[Breck]

PS if you're into horses one fun place I would train land only on was at old lady Hannam"s massive property. Big land marks there. She passed a while back but son in law Olympic equestrian trainer Davidson has property next door. Stop in and ask him for permission to train. The horse properties are so big around Unionville that from the air at night it is really dark, few lights.

 

[Qandbennsmom]

So, you know Dr. Sherman C and rehabbed FCE's. That's a good start. Did you go to Univ Tenn for training by chance? Did you ever hear of a rehab vet named John Sherman? My last dog became a field champion after lots of rehab for FCE.
I can help you with Ches Co and surrounds. Lots an lots of land and water to train on and a few people who train. I haven't had a dog in a few year so not up to speed on who's doing what.

Yes, Sherman’s a friend now. He did stem cell therapy on my previous lab when he partially tore both Achilles.
I’m sorry, I don’t know John Sherman though.
No, I’m a large animal vet tech and I worked 3 yrs as a canine rehab vet tech. I learned on the job. This was before a lot of schools were teaching it. And eq vet techs see a lot of lameness and it transfers seamlessly into canine rehab.
Our small farm backs up to Marsh Creek and can train in there. That’s what I was hoping to do is get someone to come to us a couple times as well.

 

[Qandbennsmom]

northern Piedmont is a fine club endear yourself to them and they may have a member or two that lives close to you don't know until you investigate

That’s a great idea. Thanks! I will.

 

[The Snows]

Okay .... not knowing PA counties to figure where you are I pulled up a map ..... going into NJ you also a a very active NAHRA club - Navesink - who also run AKC events. Their tests are based out of the Colliers Mills WMA ..... east of Philly.

As Ken stated, I would contact both clubs as you may find a club member who lives right in your back yard.

 

[Breck]

OK large animals. You don't work at New Bolton do you? Dr Sherman was the go to rehab guru in NC. Unfortunately he passed away very young. My dogs spent many months with him.
Regarding Marsh Creek. I lived for a dozen years out Conestoga Rd in Elverson. March Creek SP isn't exactly that useful for retriever training in the big scheme of things. Once in a while you can do stuff there like boat marks, land marks in the fields like those along Chalfont and Millford roads and you will find a few interesting down the shore marks and blinds. FYI Pheasant are stocked down Millford for bird season so you can have some fun for a few days and give your dog a break from training. Anyway, if you get serious about retriever training you won't use the park much if at all actually. When I first moved there and was green new to training I would go to park and know it well. After a a little while I didn't really go back there much except for a few days each year to to flush Pheasant with my old dog.

 

[Breck]

Also, when you hook up with people to train with and want them to come train in your area you will want to find a number of other useful spots both land and water to have available to train on. Hopefully they would do the same. You can easily "wear out" training grounds so part of your routine will probably include exploration for new grounds. I may share my Google Earth file with you at some point. It has pins with locations for every training spot I had permission to use surrounding Elverson plus pins of training and field trail grounds etc that I know about throughout the US and Canada.

 

[Malcolm]

It’s just not doable on a regular basis right now.
It’s all good. I’ve got fantastic training grounds in my back yard. I was just hoping I could get someone to guide us.
I’m in the middle of horse country so riding lessons with good trainers are only 1/2hr at most. Guess I was thinking it’d be that way with dogs too but I guess not. 🤷‍♀️I’ll figure something out.

If you have access to good grounds, invite them to you! New/quality grounds will get people moving in your direction.
Give/take!!

 

[Gregg0211]

Hi, thanks for the thought but that’s an hr an 1/2 away.
So frustrating. I can’t believe we don’t have a club in my county.

There arent many of us that have the luxury NOT to drive 1-2 hours for good training grounds. if there is a good solid group, its worth every minute of the drive.