[2tall]

George, you are getting close to what has bothered me most about this thread since the beginning. It really does not matter what they were trying to teach the dog or handler, if the result was a dog so frightened and overwhelmed that he tried to bite his way out. You can have the kindest, gentlest lab in the world, does not have to be a chessie () and if you put him into a situation he sees no way out of, biting will happen. Then you may have a whole nother worse problem. All trainers can make mistakes. Might have been what happened here by choosing a bark collar. I found out first hand how badly that can turn out, even when at a low setting. The dog can not get away from the correction in his pain and fright. Only thing left is fight.

 

[copterdoc]

.....if the result was a dog so frightened and overwhelmed that he tried to bite his way out.....

Where did that happen?

 

[2tall]

From the op, "Well the mark was thrown and the dog started whining and then went ballistic, the trainer instructed the handler to old the dog by the collar as it flailed and screamed and not let go,"

Maybe the dog did not succeed in biting because of the hold on the collar, but his intent is clear if the op described the dog's actions accurately. Others seemed to think so too when they advised him that the "dog might bite the handler". Regardless, this is a likely result of using an uncontrollable correction such as a bark collar in this situation. Bad idea.

 

[gdgnyc]

I think (emphasize THINK) that I have read in at least one source that to use a hard correction like that next to a dog or a person is a no-no. Who knows what the dog's associations are?

 

[Howard N]

From the op, "Well the mark was thrown and the dog started whining and then went ballistic, the trainer instructed the handler to old the dog by the collar as it flailed and screamed and not let go,"

Maybe the dog did not succeed in biting because of the hold on the collar, but his intent is clear if the op described the dog's actions accurately. Others seemed to think so too when they advised him that the "dog might bite the handler". Regardless, this is a likely result of using an uncontrollable correction such as a bark collar in this situation. Bad idea.

2tall, you read this totally differently than I did. I thought the dog was flailing around and screaming to go pick up the mark, not bite the handler.

 

[gdgnyc]

2tall, you read this totally differently than I did. I thought the dog was flailing around and screaming to go pick up the mark, not bite the handler.

You mean we don't really know what the dog is reacting to? For me, that complicates things more.

No matter what, I'll bet that you would not liked to have been holding on to that dog.

 

[John Robinson]

Not having been there, my only issue is the use of a bark collar instead of the normal collar that you have control of. I accidently turned my bark collar too high one time then walked away from my truck to throw marks for another dog, my poor dog barked once, then reacted to the bark collar in panic as he didn't know how to turn it off. I haven't run three hundred yards that fast since my high school days of running the 440 in track.

 

[2tall]

From the op, "Well the mark was thrown and the dog started whining and then went ballistic, the trainer instructed the handler to old the dog by the collar as it flailed and screamed and not let go,"

Maybe the dog did not succeed in biting because of the hold on the collar, but his intent is clear if the op described the dog's actions accurately. Others seemed to think so too when they advised him that the "dog might bite the handler". Regardless, this is a likely result of using an uncontrollable correction such as a bark collar in this situation. Bad idea.

Not having been there, my only issue is the use of a bark collar instead of the normal collar that you have control of. I accidently turned my bark collar too high one time then walked away from my truck to throw marks for another dog, my poor dog barked once, then reacted to the bark collar in panic as he didn't know how to turn it off. I haven't run three hundred yards that fast since my high school days of running the 440 in track.

Howard, this was my point. Maybe I just read the "flailing about" part in context with the comment about "might bite". Even if I did misread that, I still believe a bark collar is a bad idea at the line. My own personal experience.

 

[Justin Allen]

I can't imagine using a bark collar in that situation. A regular collar if you want collar pressure but certainly not a collar only the dog controls. I'd venture to guess the denials made him quieter.

 

[RookieTrainer]

I have had to do that before in response to the old "You need to beat the crap out of that dog and get his attention" training technique. I have decided that if that is your suggestion, particularly after seeing a dog for about 3 minutes, then I am not much interested in anything else you have to say.

I have great respect for my friend who told a pro at a training session "You're not going to do that to my dog".

 

[RookieTrainer]

Post of the thread here. Of course, the OP also could have asked, and may have done so for all I know.

I think if I was training with someone I was not familiar with, and particularly if I was a pro, I would make darn sure to explain something like this and how it was far out of the ordinary and a last resort.

Hopefully we can all learn from this...This was obviously someone new to the training group, people had to notice. Maybe it would have been a good idea to have a group discussion before this correction was done to the dog to explain;
a. what the problem was
b. any efforts that were tried in the past to try to correct the problem
c. what could be tried in the future and how that would correct the problem
d. where the person could possible get more information regarding this particular problem the dog is having

I'm not coming down on anyone. Training time is for learning, not just for the dogs but for the people too. I think so many people see things they don't understand and can inturpert them incorrectly because they don't know what is going on. Take the time to teach the people too!

 

[HPL]

Howard, this was my point. Maybe I just read the "flailing about" part in context with the comment about "might bite". Even if I did misread that, I still believe a bark collar is a bad idea at the line. My own personal experience.

Actually, from the context of the original post, I too, assumed that the flailing etc was in response to the collar. Once the dog made enough sound to activate the collar, it was off to the races. Doesn't sound like anything I would have liked being around either.

 

[Stan b]

QUESTION; Is this normal?

ANSWER; NO!