[Sharon Potter]

I'm going to share an interesting conversation I had yesterday with a friend who runs FT with his Labs (and don't worry, buddy...I'm not gonna out you on here!). We were talking about this whole topic, and he said pretty much the same thing. As long as his dog can win, he doesn't care how it's built or what it looks like. So here's how the conversation went:

Me: So the breed standard doesn't matter to you?
Him: Nope. Not important what they look like as long as they win.
Me: So you know my Brittany...he's a retrieving fool.
Him: Yes, he sure is.
Me: So if I could train him to run in your FTs and he was competitive, that would be OK.
Him: NO! He's a Brittany.
Me: Yeah, but you said it doesn't matter what a dog looks like.
Him: But he's not the right breed for retriever FTs.
Me: How do you know?
Him: (getting a little perturbed) because he looks like a G%$ D*&^# Brittany!!
Me: How do you know he's not just an orange and white, hairy Retriever?
Him: Because retrievers don't look like F%$#@ Brittanies!!
Me: How do you know what a retriever looks like?
Him (thinking I have to have lost my mind) Because Labs are black or yellow (he forgot Choc. but I let that slide.) and your d$#@ Brittany hasn't got Lab papers.
Me: Who says they have to be black or yellow or have Lab papers? So if my Brittany were solid black, he could run AKC FTs?
Him: AKC. And hell no, your Brittany still wouldn't be a Lab!!! (he's turning bright red right then)
Me: Why not? And how exactly does AKC come to that conclusion?
Him (light bulb slowly getting brighter as he realizes what I've just done): Well, because that's what AKC says in the rules.
Me: What rules? Oh...you mean that pesky old breed standard?
Him: I am so busted.....

 

[Last Frontier Labs]

Jason, fair enough.
But I think what Sherri and Sissi are getting at is at what point is it no longer a Labrador Retriever?

Thanks Sean. That is, indeed, the point. Sharon's conversation with her friend makes the point too.

 

[Granddaddy]

But the important issue is who determines what meets the std. For me, it's dogs like the Grangemead dogs, Super Chief & a number of field titled dogs running today. They clearly meet the std but are not the "type" rewarded or considered by the specialty group or even the more moderate conformation group. I think both of those groups have distorted the breed std for their own personal preferences & then discredited FTs as extreme, eliminating the required body type out of hand. Form follows function and the function that has always been the std is expressed in our field champions. But you say FTs have changed & I'll agree. The truth is though that todays FT winners are better dogs in their function - the #1 priority, than in the past. So if you don't want greyhounds, then change the game that determines the elite dogs rather than try to hold on to an interpretation of the std that never existed anyway.

 

[Fowl Play WA]

When I'm picking a breeder I hope I never make a phone call saying "sure is a beautiful dog that meets the standerd but won't pick up a duck". And something tells me the people I buy a dog from would be sick.

In addition, I don't believe anyone I've bought a dog from would be offended if I called them up and said. "dog looks like a greyhound but boy can it mark". More than likely they would congratulate me and wish me best of luck on my chase of the win.

Jason, something like this happened to me when I was looking for Stryke. I called a breeder in WA and asked what she does to her (gorgeous) dogs to help preserve natural instinct. She told me that she does not raise hunting dogs, that her dogs won't go to hunting homes because all hunters do is leave them in the kennel. Then she hung up on me. Her dogs probably met standand. They sure were pretty.

 

[Sharon Potter]

Granddaddy, I agree. There is room for variations, and that's not the problem. It's the radical extremes (on both ends) that are the issue.

The ones who can change it are the show judges. Wouldn't it be interesting to have a judge...who is supposed to be judging by the standard as to which dog comes closest to it, rather than dog against dog....have the cojones to say, when presented with a class of these extreme, overdone and overweight dogs, say "I'm sorry, there will be no ribbons awarded today. There isn't a dog here that is acceptable according to the standard."

Of course, that judge would not be invited to judge again. ;-)

 

[Steve]

The reason a Lab that conform to the standard will never be a FC is because the tests are not designed so they can compete.

And yet, show dogs do not win trials in Britain. Their trials are actual hunts.

The reason that show dogs cannot compete in FTs is that they lack the marking, trainability and desire that is required to compete at that level.

 

[windycanyon]

Granddaddy, I agree. There is room for variations, and that's not the problem. It's the radical extremes (on both ends) that are the issue.

The ones who can change it are the show judges. Wouldn't it be interesting to have a judge...who is supposed to be judging by the standard as to which dog comes closest to it, rather than dog against dog....have the cojones to say, when presented with a class of these extreme, overdone and overweight dogs, say "I'm sorry, there will be no ribbons awarded today. There isn't a dog here that is acceptable according to the standard."

Of course, that judge would not be invited to judge again. ;-)

This Sharon, is EXACTLY why I like the International shows. They do place the dogs but every dog is eval'd individually and given a written critique by the judge. You gate your dog w/ its class, then individually sit down for a face to face, hands on session w/ the judge. Then the group goes around again. This coming weekend I have my 2 yo entered. One of the judges coming is Jane Ropollo from Shreveport LA, a well respected AKC judge. I really liked Jane's approach 2 yrs ago in the ring. She was very much into function and movement, and was VERY thorough about eval'ing the whole dog... right down to checking for missing molars. When I laughed and told her she was the first judge that weekend to count teeth, she flashed a big smile and said "And you'd be surprised what I've seen too!". No, not me. I have been told about big show winners that are missing up to 8 pre/molars.... can hardly eat kibble. She ended up putting Fuji (my choc, who is mom to the 2 yo entered this weekend) up as BOB that day, and she got a 3rd in the Sporting group, despite the fact that to me, she looked like an imp compared to the other labs in the ring because she's so much more moderate (60#, 21" tall).

Now that our FCI standard (English) does have an allowance to excuse overdone, overweight dogs, it's going to be interesting to me if they exercise that option. Some of the other judges appear to be herding and non sporting folks. That's the other thing I like about the Intl shows--- it FORCES those judges who may not be AKC licensed, to sit down and study the breed standards before their assignments. I find I get more honest and useful evals than I might from a lab breeder/judge who is too focused on "type" or the furnishings. Anne