[K G]

From the current FT rulebook, Standard Procedure, Chapter 8:

8. On marked retrieves, a dog should be able to see
each bird in the air and as it falls, and the Guns should be
so stationed as to be conspicuous to and easily identified
by the dog. No Dry Guns should be stationed in the field
and visible to the dog while a marking test is run, or while
the marking portion of a combination mark / blind test is
run. Guns may be requested to shoot twice at every bird.
After birds have been shot, all Guns shall remain quiet
and only move their positions in accordance with specific
instructions by Judges. Judges may instruct Guns and
their associated bird thrower to retire from the sight of
the dog or dogs on line provided that such instructions
should provide all reasonable assurance that the movement
of the Guns and thrower will not distract the running
dog from viewing the marks thrown and to be
thrown as part of the test, or divert the running dog from
proceeding to the first bird for which the dog is sent.
Retired Guns and throwers should be concealed by a
blind with adequate natural camouflage or by adequate
natural cover as close as possible to the place from
which the mark was thrown or shot and so located as to
minimize the development of a trail that will lead the
running dog away from the area of the fall. In no circumstances
should the judges have the guns move to
another position to mislead dogs in their marking. No
blinds should be placed in the field in a marking test
except in accordance with the provisions set forth in
this paragraph or for the purpose of protecting the running
dogs from injury by unseen hazards.

I don't quite know where to start here....

The above pretty much gives all the guidance anyone who ever sits in the chair would need with regard to movement of gunners/throwers BEFORE THE DOG IS SENT. It shouldn't happen. The Standard Procedure gives guidance on how it is to be avoided.

That said, Angie's right. Somehow, the above passage still doesn't keep it from EVER happening.

Now, from the other side of the coin....when else are the gunners supposed to move? When the dog is released to retrieve, the gunners should move THEN to either sit down where instructed or retire to where instructed. If they're moving any other time, there are mechanical issues that need to be addressed by the judges or the stake marshal.

That's all I've got with no more specific situational info to work with.

kg

 

[K G]

I would like to hear some feedback on a related question.
How would you judge the pop that occurred?
The dog was sent for the go-bird and the kids began moving to the blind. The dog saw them and ran after them as did 12 other dogs that ran the test. As they ducked into the blind he was on their tail. The pop was a quick stop at the holding blind. The dog did not sit, just a quick stop for maybe 30 seconds looking back to the handler with a puzzled look then without any direction from the handler the dog resumed his quest for the bird. He had a couple of circles behind the blind then went in front to the bird.
How would you judge this?

Without further comment about how supremely silly it is to retire the go-bird............IMHO, of course......

If accurate marking is of primary importance, and the mechanics of the test have put the testing of that marking in jeopardy through the movement of the birdboys, then there are two probable remedies: 1) disregard the pop and score accordingly, or 2) rerun the dog. Neither is a good option, and I'm not sure one is better than the other. Stopping the bird boys from retiring is not an option since it changes the test. Scrapping the test is an option, but to do that due to poor mechanics is a smelly option as well. Might've been a good time to use layout blinds.....

What a mess............

As for the protest, I think asking the committee to give the situation a look would have been in order since 13 dogs fell victim to this situation. Depending on their response, a written protest might well have been the best option.

It never ceases to amaze me how people can find ways to make a tough, thankless job even harder.......

kg

 

[K G]

Actions taken when the alleged infraction happens will usually get the best results.

Without question. After the fact complaints usually result in woulda/shoulda/coulda.....

What I'm amazed about is that if 13 dogs had this problem, why wasn't there an organized effort to get the committee involved?

kg

 

[K G]

I don't think this prohibits movement of the gunners before the dog is sent. The key is whether it distracts the dog from seeing a mark.

With all due respect, Doug...the KEY is twofold:

...such instructions should provide all reasonable assurance that the movement
of the Guns and thrower 1) will not distract the running dog from viewing the marks thrown and to be thrown as part of the test, or 2) divert the running dog from proceeding to the first bird for which the dog is sent.

Separate issues, but equally important.

Many times I've seen where having gunners moving while the dog is on the line, improve the visibility of the test (close flier gunners walking out from behind a blind for example)

Are other guns moving in the field at the same time? Is this close-in flier the last bird down? Part of the usefulness of the close in flier IS the movement if it's the last bird down. Other than that, ANYTHING that causes a dog's focus to change OTHER THAN ITS OWN OR ITS HANDLERS MOVEMENT is of no use in testing MARKING. Common sense indeed....

Actually, this may be the MOST distracting, if the gunners from one station are visibly moving as the dog is enroute to another station. It all depends on the setup.

Pretty much EVERYTHING depends on the setup, doesn't it? The ideal time to have people move is when the dog is on the way back with a retrieve and the gunners are behind the dog....but that DEPENDS as well. AS LONG AS THEY DON'T DISTRACT THE DOG, I pretty much don't care WHEN they move. One station moving while another bird is going down is NOT cool.

You can make all the rules you want, but you still need some common sense while judging.

No doubt....but those pesky rules sure come in handy sometimes.....

kg

 

[K G]

You know you might want to read this rule again, I don't think it says anything along the lines of " it shouldn't happen" and I think that's where the problem lies. It makes mention to the fact that the guns shall remain silent as not to distract, and that movement should be kept to a minimium as not to interfere with the dogs ability to see the birds go down. Unless I miss something here the rule pretty well sums it up?

I'm quite comfortable with my interpretation of the rule book with regard to this issue, Barry. Furthermore, I'm also comfortable with my personal belief that it is silly to retire the go-bird. When you are sitting in the chair, you do what you need to do. It's your prerogative.

I like the second paragraph of Jim Pickering's comment above. I am in no way, shape, or form saying that it CANNOT be done. I'm sure there's a way to do it, and maybe even do it fairly....I'm apparently just not smart enough to figure out how to do it without it circumventing the spirit of the rules.

With the multitude of options field trial judges have at their disposal to test dogs, I'm not inclined to use something like this to test dogs just because I can.

But that's just me.....;-)

kg

 

[K G]

How about if they just took one step back and sat down behind a holding blind. I see nothing the matter with this situation, with an out of order flyer.

Nor do I....but that's not the issue at hand. Retiring the "go" bird is the issue.

The same thing holds true on retiring too far from where you throw the bird. Some times there is not a place to hide someone, without digging a hole it's just as easy to retire back to a better place to hide. I see nothing the matter with retiring 20 or so yards away. After all I don't see anyone complaining about shooting a bird out of a winger 40 yards and retiring 10 yards away, which in my judgement is much more unfair.

Trailing the bird boy back to the "hiding place" is the issue. The further the distance of the "retiree," the more ground that is tracked up and probably hunted by the dog looking for the bird. 20 yds is a LOT of ground to hunt out of the area, and probably out of the field trial.

A bird thrown 40 yds out of a winger (a sensational distance, but good for the point to be made) is in the air for that 40 yds. Only 10 yds of tracks and a total of 50 yds distance from the "hiding place" to the bird all but eliminates tracking. One would assume that a bird that "flies" 40 yds. was INCREDIBLY visible to the dog, all but negating the effect of the tracking.

Those are some STRONG rubber bands regards, ;-)

kg

 

[K G]

Yet now, you say this may be a "trick" test and outside the spirit of the rules because the gun is possibly retiring enroute? As per the rules, the judge cannot determine the order of the retrieves.

Please show me where I said it was a "trick" test. Good luck with that.

Doug, I've determined that there's very little, if anything, I can post that you won't take issue with. I wear my "big boy" pants when I'm on here so I can live with that. However, I am somewhat disappointed that you chose to convolute my words and not take them for how they're meant. You've made it your mission, by all appearances, to cut, paste, and quote snippets that produce conflicting statements on my behalf. You conveniently omit (on purpose, obviously) portions that help explain my points more clearly.

There are several people on here who, if they didn't understand or agree with what I meant, would go out of their way to question my meaning. I'm good with that; what I'm NOT good with is your style simply for the sake of being confrontational.

I'm glad you agree with at least one thing I posted:

AS LONG AS THEY DON'T DISTRACT THE DOG, I pretty much don't care WHEN they move.

Post #18, Ted.....

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[K G]

Keith

I didn't realize that you and Doug had - at least from your perspective - some sort of ongoing dispute

All I know is what I read. If there's an opportunity, real or manufactured, for Doug to confront me, he'll jump on it.

To the extent that you and Doug are arguing, in this post at least, I take no side

Nor would I expect you to.

It seems as though we three - at least - are in agreement that we should not distract the dogs

It would appear so.

Other than that, I don't have much more to add at the moment

I called post #18 to your attention only to point out where Doug found the ONE thing that we can apparently agree on.

kg

 

[K G]

When you look at the rules in totality, isn't the bottom line that we as judges should do our best - under the circumstances - to give the dogs the best possible opportunity to see the guns - and the birds - without unnecessary distraction

So that they can show us their MARKING ABILITY?

Absolutely and without question. That is the foundation of the retriever field trial sport.

It seems as though there are some who believe that, as long as it can be trained for, it can be incorporated into a test, either on purpose or coincidentally, regardless of the written rule or its spirit.

Some.....not all.....

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[K G]

I'm not saying that you shouldn't be comfortable with your beliefs, it just sounds as if you think everyone on the go bird should remain standing till the dog picks up the bird, or maybe you just don't like out of order flyer's, and to me that's silly. What's the difference if one sits down behind heavy cover or behind a holding blind? Go birds are in essence retired all the time in that fashion, and at many trials where there are two retired guns. It's not just done because people can do it, it's done because people get tired of standing all day long.

Simply "sitting down" versus "hiding/retiring" is as different as night and day and is not really a part of this discussion. Gunners sitting down is something all (99%) dogs are used to that compete in field trials. We're talking about visible, obvious, distracting movement of the go-bird gunners to "hide/retire" as the primary issue. As for my feelings about out-of-order flyers, just ask anyone who ran the last series of the Open at Acadiana Feb 8-10 how I feel about them!

Funny that you always can only find a ton of criticism if it doesn't coincide with what you want to here (hear). Measure the distance between the two scenerios and you find that it's much the same, but you really have a problem with tracking, and I admit tracking can be a problem but only to dogs that didn't mark the bird. Do you really think that retiring a gun 20 yards or so is going to screw your dog up, if he's positive and knows there is a mark out there he will come up with it. If not he will hunt the holding blind or track to the blind.

Apparently enough people thought it was a big enough problem to propose a rule change that limits movement to retire to a MAXIMUM of 10 yards. What I think personally is not important.

I really don't know what to tell you, I thought marking the bird was the important thing.

If you look at a couple of the earlier posts I put up, you'll find that I agree with that.

Maybe we should leave all guns up and have no one retire that way there will be no tricks no tracks, except where the chairs are. Maybe we should eliminate shooting a flyer because dropping 97 flyers in an area leaves too much sent (scent) in different locations in that fall area so as not to confuse the dog, right. Oh and what about the flyers that are shot out of the area, that soils another area and tracks that area up. What about drag back it gets worse later in the day, scrap the test, On and on and on.

While I appreciate a good dose of sarcasm every now and then (ask anybody here...;-)), the above adds nothing to the discussion. There are "breaks of the game" that you can control, and there are breaks you can't control. Movement of gunners can/should be controlled.

As for the winger there are a few dealers that advertise these distances and they are incredibly (incredible?), and you do get a good visual but I don't assume anything. I think the wingers are most unfair, and would never use them in a trial except to put a bird in an exact spot every time when a thrower could not. (ie bird to an island or spit) But they are great tool for marking during training.

As a judge, I'd much rather know that the long retired bird at 400 yds in the first series of my 90 dog open is going to land in the same place ALL DAY LONG than to have some guy's arm give out after 50 dogs....or the kid throwing the long bird has a date and has to leave at 4pm, and the guy they put on that bird makes the proverbial 98 pound weakling look like Charles Atlas. The only thing that has to be added to the winger is the simulated throwing movement to make it look the same all 90 times.

How about mark the bird regards.

Indeed. As long as nothing but the bird is moving, that should be testable.

kg

 

[K G]

Keith, now maybe I AM just imagining a meaning from what you wrote that just isn't there. Jim clearly called retiring enroute a trick test. You adopted Jim's argument.....

Take a WILD guess why I PURPOSELY supported the SECOND paragraph, and NOT the first, of Jim's post.....go ahead and give it a shot....I've got time...

With regard to your obsession with I'm sure there's a way to do it, and maybe even do it fairly....I'm apparently just not smart enough to figure out how to do it without it circumventing the spirit of the rules.....yeah, Doug, you did misunderstand. I can't help it if you choose to interpret my every word LITERALLY. I was using a touch, not a ballpeen hammer-type touch but the slightest touch, of self-deprecating humor sprinkled with irony to point out that I REALLY think it's the WRONG thing to do without coming out and telling someone that it's a TRICK test, 'cause the way it's been stated here (see my statement ABOVE about NOT supporting Jim's first paragraph ON PURPOSE). The judge(s) that have used have retired the go-bird had a RATIONALE for using it. I don't agree with it, but I DON'T HAVE TO. I just won't DO it....retire the go-bird, I mean.

Keith, from my point of view, the street goes both ways. Maybe your "big boy pants" are a little too tight.

Doug, I don't take exception with your every post. Go back and look; I RARELY post on ANYTHING you post UNLESS you're on my back. I don't mix your quotes and leave out phrases crucial to the correct interpretation of the context in trying to slam you. You also take credit for statements that you didn't originate....and my "big boy pants" fit just fine, thanks for your concern.

Re-read this thread. I think you are the one that took it personal!!!;-)

It's "personally," not personal. Are you trying to say you meant "nothing" by your posts and your quoting me out of context? Go back and reread the thread yourself before you answer. I took exception to your method. Interesting that your concern is MY point of view moreso than your own.

kg

 

[K G]

Geez Keith. Grow up!!!!

No, Keith. I meant personal! You took this thread personal, as with personal attacks. Maybe you took my comments personally, too. ;-) I don't care!!!

Does that make you feel better?

That you don't care how I took your comments is all too obvious, and proves my point to a "T."

Have it your way Doug. I took it "personal" 'cause I'm tired of you being on my a$$ and distorting my views to suit your own purpose. If that's too "personal" for you, so be it. Stop doing it and you won't have any problems with me. Taking exception is one thing; misquoting and manipulating my words are another entirely.

And if you call my not taking any cr@p off of you "personal attacks" on you, then you need to rethink whose shorts are on a little too tight.............interesting that your posts now have NOTHING to say about this thread's topic.

It's good to know where your priorities are, Doug.

kg

 

[K G]

You know all that being said BLAH,BLAH,BLAH. Like I said before nothing is going to make you happy unless in coinsides with what you want to hear.
Any way you scratch it sitting down, and sitting down behind a holding blind is the one in the same except for the holding blind. If you are talking about shooting the bird and then running across the field to retire than I would say yes there is a problem. I would guess by your smile face that you like out of order flyer's, if not get used to them.

Do you think that a rule change will come from what happened at a couple of trials? You better rethink that one. Better yet GOOD LUCK ! This has been on the plate of the SOR for a long time. And the last I heard it was voted down. If you like good doses of sarcasm that's it.

If you need to throw a bird 400 yds to get results then there is a problem, and a winger is not your answer. Don't think I can see that far. Poeple getting tired is a problem that's why we have gun changes. Same as for the flyer they change, and it changes the test 50% of the time. It all revolves around the luck of the draw.

Try the happy face regards.

I used the "happy face" in my last post to you. You even quoted it.

What is said/written here is of little consequence in the "real world." Get used to it.

As for a 400 yd bird, distance is not the point. 90 dogs is the point. "Luck of the draw".....that's true enough, but when judging, "that's the breaks" is an excuse I REALLY don't like to use, especially if I could have done something to avoid it.

kg

 

[K G]

I feel compelled to take a shot at the "let's finish on Monday rather than Sunday" discussion......................................

The tendancy to push for a Sunday finish might cause the judges to score a minor twist/turn/fault more severely (i.e., "nit picking") just for the sake of finishing than they would if they had more time/another day to finish the series/trial.

Finishing the second minor stake with room to spare on Sunday is directly correlated to how well the first minor stake goes on Friday. Add a good dose of cooperation from the AA stakes, pro handlers who will go where they are TOLD to go, stake marshals who keep the holding blinds full, and a trial marshal who can coordinate it all, and you don't have to worry about ANY stake finishing on Monday.

'Course, the weather might throw a wrench into the best organizational skills and efforts, but barring that, everyone should be on their way home by dark Sunday night.

As always, JMHO.....;-)

kg