[Colonel Blimp]

I think you need to distinguish between the body language you have taught the dog to display, and the concept in her mind of what she's supposed to be doing. You've got a good response from her on the first bit and a poor one on the second because she doesn't know whats expected of her.

So in no way is the dog "lying", quite the opposite, she's telling you the blunt truth "You haven't taught me well enough". Once you've grasped that you can go forward with the suggestions the other guys have made.

In teaching the concept of a dead cold completely un-cued blind (no shot, no cones, posts, and in new terrain) I like to make use of a rise in the ground just a few yards from the send out spot, that conceals the dummy from the dog's level of sight. Once it breasts the rise, it sees the white dummy standing out like a beacon giving a great addition to momentum.

Eug

 

[Dave Farrar]

Thanks to everyone that participated in this thread. The OP could have just as easily been me. I guess I won't get too concerned until we have done a few hundred more...

 

[Breck]

I went and found the thread because I wanted to know more. Thanks Breck.
http://www.retrievertraining.net/forums/showthread.php?93033

.
right, thanks for finding the thread Dave. Good idea to read comments Randy wrote. There are other related threads if you look
There are several things that need to be rock solid before you do the long distance lining drills. Starts in the Yard. Dog must move with you only when you move and ideally line himself up with where ever your dog side foot is pointed. (many don't subscribe to this method but if you train your dog this way lots can be gained and if you run into trouble you have some seriously good tools to address them. Much more to the program than simply getting dog to lineup with you..................
Ask Randy for more info if interested.
cheers............

 

[GilWlsn]

Gil,

I love your comment. I wasn't at the last training day for Three Rivers, but know exactly what you are talking about. I haven't run a cold blind in over a year. I have a 2 1/2 year old YLM that will hopefully complete his HRCH in the fall. Working on stretching him out and creating high confidence in our blinds. I also like to run to a post/marker set-up in front/behind/near a natural landmark (ie tree sapling, brush pile, thicket etc) which is a common practice at HT in AKC and HRC.

. Kinda like going over to the dark side. And placement .... exactly! Today it was 2 bumpers that floated off the stake into a channel (too lazy to walk around the pond and missed). Got to the post, sit, angle back right... " what he says" tap, angle back right...well look here!

 

[Olddog]

The most most important concept that a dog has to learn in running cold blinds is believing in the handler. This has to be done through lots of blinds, watching a dog that locks on the line after his cue is liking watching a runner right before the gun goes off. Fighting factors & handling skills are taught, trust is built by practice.

 

[mostlygold]

It seems some do sight blinds for momentum, cold blinds for handling. Do many do both throughout dogs career? I have been taught that dogs learn to handle by running cold blinds. They may start out slower (less momentum) as they learn, but catch up as they gain experience. I do walkout blinds with my dogs, but tend not to put out visible markers, even for the young ones. As long as they head in the general direction I want, I'm pleased.

Never thought about using white cones for wagon wheel. That would certainly make the picture clearer in the beginning. That tight lining stuff, even with no collar pressure tends to unnerve my dogs and they start getting buggy. I love all the ideas folks throw out. Makes me think about the training process a bit more.

Dawn

 

[Buzz]

So you are "transitioning to cold blinds" and not getting good initial lines? Nothing unusual about that, at this point it is much more about going somewhere when sent, stopping, and changing directions when cast. After a few hundred blinds you can start to worry about initial line.

Glad I scrolled to your post so I didn't need to say it. After reading just a few lines of the OP, I started getting visions of a handler fiddling around on line trying to get a good initial line. Next thing you know the dog will be getting all uncomfortable and bugging or popping.

OP, sit your dog down in the general direction you need and say BACK. Work on lining with wagon wheel drill in the yard. Later on in the progression, work on no-no drills.

I see you said you did wagon wheels a couple times a week. I have a dog that I did wagon wheel with every day, five days a week for about 2 months. He finally became almost attached to my left foot/let. Give it a try, you'll be impressed with how your dog works with you on the mat.

 

[22899]

I agree with what Ed,,, Buzz,,, and Jollydog told you.

Sounds pretty common for a dog just starting cold blinds.
Dont mess with a young dog at the line. Sit him ,,put your hand down,and say "back"..Then handle as needed. (No collar used unless he doesnt "Sit")

Dog doesnt like to be handled,, and eventually the line will straighten..... It WILL!!

The link Jollydog gave to you is excellent!

 

[Mark Littlejohn]

Are you running your cold blinds on "fresh" grounds?
You've got to create trust that where you're pointing the dog, she's going to find something if she heads out "there".
If you're on grounds where you train regularly, she might be taking off for a place where she's found something before since she hasn't made the connection between what lining, cold blinds and "dead bird/back" (or whatever you command) are all about.

 

[Hunt'EmUp]

It seems like you worried about a dog that doesn't carry a line not about a dog that takes the wrong line. Carrying a line has to be learned most do this with pattern blind etc. as they have an end goal and the dog absolutely knows where they should go, thus you can correct the line. Once you transition to cold blinds, we hope the confidence and habit carries over. However if you want her to carry lines, your not helping by stopping and casting her. Instead you might try stopping her bring her back, telling her NO-correcting her and resending until she carries the line you want her to.

 

[mjh345]

It seems like you worried about a dog that doesn't carry a line not about a dog that takes the wrong line. Carrying a line has to be learned most do this with pattern blind etc. as they have an end goal and the dog absolutely knows where they should go, thus you can correct the line. Once you transition to cold blinds, we hope the confidence and habit carries over. However if you want her to carry lines, your not helping by stopping and casting her. Instead you might try stopping her bring her back, telling her NO-correcting her and resending until she carries the line you want her to.

For you and your dogs sake, Please IGNORE THIS!!!

 

[Bridget Bodine]

For you and your dogs sake, Please IGNORE THIS!!!

I AGREE do NOT RECALL!!! ( at this stage)

 

[Mac Lassiter]

NO I am not recalling ! I have yet to have a no go, and and I am not going to do anything to promote it, She goes, just not the correct direction sometimes! I would think it would be far better to handle, even if its after the first 10 yards.

 

[BJGatley]

NO I am not recalling ! I have yet to have a no go, and and I am not going to do anything to promote it, She goes, just not the correct direction sometimes! I would think it would be far better to handle, even if its after the first 10 yards.

You are dealing with an animal who might and I repeat might become self-employed at times. Go back in your training and change the behavior. It might take some time, but then again you want to do it right. When judging blinds, use the two finger in a "V" shape rule to get an idea what is off limits. In FTs it is one finger. Lastly...choose your battles and understand that.

 

[Tony Marshall]

You are dealing with an animal who might and I repeat might become self-employed at times. Go back in your training and change the behavior. It might take some time, but then again you want to do it right. When judging blinds, use the two finger in a "V" shape rule to get an idea what is off limits. In FTs it is one finger. Lastly...choose your battles and understand that.

To each their own but I am not a fan of holding a dog this tight when first transitioning to cold blinds. Later yes but right now I would suggest as long as the dog gives you a good change of direction let them carry the cast for a while. Work on precision later.

 

[BJGatley]

To each their own but I am not a fan of holding a dog this tight when first transitioning to cold blinds. Later yes but right now I would suggest as long as the dog gives you a good change of direction let them carry the cast for a while. Work on precision later.

I agree with you. Two fingers in a "V" shape though is pretty liberal on a line. When I am at a point when introducing cold blinds, my dog understands what I want from him through many repetitions. I want success through my training. If I get a hiccup, then I need to look what I did to cause it.

Edit to post last time. When I mean repetitions, I mean pattern blinds. I am a fan of pattern blinds big time. My last edit.