[Rainmaker]

Thanks all,

Usually the baby gate is to keep her close by for house breaking and typical puppy chewing. We do not use it to keep her away from us most of the time. It's used to keep her in the same room.

Which raises an interesting point. If we make no attempt to restrain her, she will normally follow us from room to room. However she does sometimes wander off to get up to puppy badness. This could lend weight to the augment that it MIGHT NOT BE separation anxiety.

On the other hand, she loves being in the back yard. And if left alone will entertain herself for a few minutes. But then will start to howl and cry. Does this not seem like it should be SA? Or is it more likely, "hey come play with me!"?

It seems that the unanimous opinion here is that it is either not SA or she should just be crated out of it.

She seems to suffer from a huge amount of anxiety in general. The vet seemed to think that vomiting in the create was nothing serious.

I have not talked to the breeder. The breeder has a very large kennel. She was staying with several other pups around the same age, in an barn/stable type of arrangement. The breeder said she was introduced to the crate but I think it's either not true or she was traumatized by her trip home and first night with us.

It's only been 2 weeks. But I want to nip this in the bud ASAP.

RT

Part of it, puppy was left far too long with a group of other pups in a kennel type arrangement when she should have been kept seperate and developed proper socializing and crating that was age appropriate. Now you are behind the eight ball and will have more work cut out for you. 7-20 weeks of age are the truly crucial period for puppy development and if she spent the big chunk of that with a pack of puppies, she's never been trained to be alone.

The other part, as has been stated in various ways, pup is training you, not vice versa. There's no reason to believe that pup was that "traumatized" by her trip home and first night with you, that is humanizing emotions, a major pitfall by new owners. Pups are shipped and flown or driven long distances all the time, none the worse for wear. Often, owners are anxious and hovering, worrying, which feeds into the pup, who is already in all likelihood improperly socialized by 17 weeks of age. It is normal now for her to cry when left alone, she wasn't taught how to deal with that at an age when it would have been more acceptable to her and for the past two weeks, when she cries, she gets what she wants. Sounds like you are being held hostage to even take a shower. Put pup in crate and let her deal with it, she can't do anything to hurt herself except bark herself hoarse maybe. If she doesn't get over it in a matter of weeks, with a consistent fair schedule and plenty of exercise/attention when out of the crate, I'd be talking to the breeder who created such a condition/attitude. Sorry to say, no way would I keep a pup like this that doesn't respond to appropriate training by 5 months of age, you could be in for a lifelong battle otherwise.

 

[RoscoeT]

Settle down...I had a couple weeks where Gunner would crap, then spread it all over inside AND outside of the crate. I'd get up in the middle of the night, clean it out, without saying a WORD to the dog, then put him back in.

Trust me, these dogs train us faster than we can train them. We've all been there--at least one time, many of us more than once. Your dog has you figured out. She knows that you feel sorry for her, and is playing on your emotions (and your lack of sleep). Believe me, I'm speaking from experience. It's rough to deal with these first few weeks, especially when you missed out on the most important 8 weeks. You're going to have to work a lot harder, but it will be rewarding, once you get yourself through this.

Thanks, I'm settled.

I find that lots of folks on these dog forums think that anyone who has a problem with crate training is just not being tough enough.

If it was just fussing of an otherwise outgoing pup I would agree.

For the record I DO NOT BABY HER. I am not a pushover either. But I found that it was going too far and not working so I put an end too it. I decided, like a normal human being, to question what I had read and see if there was a better way.

Articles I have read, and I mean more than one, say that the approach suggested by all here is incorrect. However when I ask folks like y'all who've been there, suggest the tough love routine.

I've going to try a bit of both. Keep her crated for a while and let her bark. If there is a lull to the noise I will take that opportunity to let her out again.

I am serious when I say it's non stop. How do you let her out to eat, pee, play, train, etc... if you're not supposed to let her out if she is fussing?

I'm not some bleeding heart, I do not want to make it worse. I want to do what's right for her. If I had not gotten such conflicting info, both read and observed, I would not even have posted that I have a problem.

 

[Fowl Play WA]

How do you let her out to eat, pee, play, train, etc... if you're not supposed to let her out if she is fussing?

Wait for that SECOND that she's quiet. With Gunner I would stand in front of the crate and say "quiet" in a calm tone and as soon as there was a second of not yelping, I'd let him out and praise him. After a few weeks, he'd be quiet for 10 seconds, and now he really is at the point that I can come home, set my stuff down and then get to the dogs. Patience, consistency and a lot of caffiene are necessary while you work through this.

 

[RoscoeT]

Part of it, puppy was left far too long with a group of other pups in a kennel type arrangement when she should have been kept seperate and developed proper socializing and crating that was age appropriate. Now you are behind the eight ball and will have more work cut out for you.
...
I'd be talking to the breeder who created such a condition/attitude. Sorry to say, no way would I keep a pup like this that doesn't respond to appropriate training by 5 months of age, you could be in for a lifelong battle otherwise.

I think that is my fault. I picked her out but had a problem that needed me to go traveling for a few weeks. So I left her with the breeder. I would have had her at 12 -14 weeks otherwise.

Then I assumed, based again on what I had read, that a few weeks older would make house training easier since she could hold it longer and be less stressed by leaving her family. The vet I talked to agreed with this and did not mention any of the early development problems that I now am reading about.

She does respond well to basic OB. When she is not distracted she's very good and a quick learner.

 

[RoscoeT]

Wait for that SECOND that she's quiet. With Gunner I would stand in front of the crate and say "quiet" in a calm tone and as soon as there was a second of not yelping, I'd let him out and praise him. After a few weeks, he'd be quiet for 10 seconds, and now he really is at the point that I can come home, set my stuff down and then get to the dogs. Patience, consistency and a lot of caffiene are necessary while you work through this.

Thanks FP, you seem to speak from some hard lessons.

I do hope to hunt her one day. I just hope she is not too timid or far behind in her training.

RT

 

[cakaiser]

Wait for that SECOND that she's quiet. With Gunner I would stand in front of the crate and say "quiet" in a calm tone and as soon as there was a second of not yelping, I'd let him out and praise him. After a few weeks, he'd be quiet for 10 seconds, Patience, consistency and a lot of caffiene are necessary while you work through this.

Settle down...I had a couple weeks where Gunner would crap, then spread it all over inside AND outside of the crate. I'd get up in the middle of the night, clean it out, without saying a WORD to the dog, then put him back in.

Trust me, these dogs train us faster than we can train them. .

See? if you let them sleep on bed, couch, you can skip all that hard, nasty,stuff.

My dogs have me totally trained, works out fine.

Regards, old, tired, need sleep, cleaned up too much poop, vomit, now taking the easy way...

 

[Fowl Play WA]

Thanks FP, you seem to speak from some hard lessons.

I do hope to hunt her one day. I just hope she is not too timid or far behind in her training.

RT

I'm telling you, go back and read anyone of my threads on Gunner. He is the dog from hell. He's slowly working his way up out of that pit, but we've had him for just shy of a year. It's taken him a LONG time to get to this point. Now he's almost lovable.

 

[Fowl Play WA]

See? if you let them sleep on bed, couch, you can skip all that hard, nasty,stuff.

My dogs have me totallly trained, works out fine.

Regards, old, tired, need sleep, cleaned up too much poop, vomit, now taking the easy way...

I don't know if I ever mentioned that I'm a stubborn Dutchman or not...Actually, the bed I'm not okay with, but the couch I don't mind. The first night I caved and brought him into my room was the most peaceful night.

 

[cakaiser]

I got the let them sleep with you stuff from Mary Howley, she said, great for house breaking.

 

[Rainmaker]

I got the let them sleep with you stuff from Mary Howley, she said, great for house breaking.

Sorry, too many big dogs in my bed, Hudson old man has earned his space and can't sleep without his big old head resting against me, and I'm not sure I could sleep without him. Pups don't do so well loose unattended in my house, too many big dogs, I constantly worry about pup chewing an electric cord or something. Little ones sleep in crates raised on a chest next to my bed so they get reassurance, then graduate to crates on the floor til trustworthy loose. They're going to spend significant time in crates in the van training, traveling, testing, they need to be able to handle it. I've kept a sick pup or two in bed for short times, but not a really viable solution for us long term.

 

[cakaiser]

Sorry, too many big dogs in my bed, Hudson old man has earned his space and can't sleep without his big old head resting against me, and I'm not sure I could sleep without him. Pups don't do so well loose unattended in my house, too many big dogs, I constantly worry about pup chewing an electric cord or something. Little ones sleep in crates raised on a chest next to my bed so they get reassurance, then graduate to crates on the floor til trustworthy loose. They're going to spend significant time in crates in the van training, traveling, testing, they need to be able to handle it. I've kept a sick pup or two in bed for short times, but not a really viable solution for us long term.

Whatever works. I don't leave pups unattended ever, either. In bed, at night, is not unattended. And, our dogs spend plenty of time on truck, traveling, trialing, too, can't see why that has much to do with it. We just prefer the gradual approach to crate training.

Just saying, there are ways other than tough love, most pups turn out fine, which ever way you do it, IMHO. Thought the OP might like to read a differing opinion.

 

[Furball]

Thanks, I'm settled.

I find that lots of folks on these dog forums think that anyone who has a problem with crate training is just not being tough enough.

If it was just fussing of an otherwise outgoing pup I would agree.

For the record I DO NOT BABY HER. I am not a pushover either. But I found that it was going too far and not working so I put an end too it. I decided, like a normal human being, to question what I had read and see if there was a better way.

Articles I have read, and I mean more than one, say that the approach suggested by all here is incorrect. However when I ask folks like y'all who've been there, suggest the tough love routine.

I've going to try a bit of both. Keep her crated for a while and let her bark. If there is a lull to the noise I will take that opportunity to let her out again.

I am serious when I say it's non stop. How do you let her out to eat, pee, play, train, etc... if you're not supposed to let her out if she is fussing?

I'm not some bleeding heart, I do not want to make it worse. I want to do what's right for her. If I had not gotten such conflicting info, both read and observed, I would not even have posted that I have a problem.

Hi again,
How long did you give the barking at night, or during the day. How long did she howl before settling down and how long did you leave her alone? By 19 weeks of age she should be able to go through the night and hold it for up to 4 hours in the crate. Have you left her alone in there for that long? What are you doing when you have to leave the house for a few hours? Is it truly non-stop for 4+ hours?
As I said before, I am REALLY doubtful that this is a true case of separation anxiety. This sounds like an under-socialized puppy with fretful owners.
I strongly disagree that you should go and let her out and praise her the second she becomes quiet in the crate. Now you are praising for GETTING OUT! Puppy thinks, crate bad, outside good. This sets up for MORE ANXIETY! The puppy will NOT understand why you are suddenly ramping up the stress level by laying on the praise, letting her out, making a fuss out of her. This is exactly what you do NOT want to do with an anxious dog. LEAVE HER ALONE and ignore her in the crate, do not even talk to her to tell her good dog.

You can make a good analogy to separation anxiety in dogs and ADHD in kids. Just because a kid is active, destructive, loud, etc, does not mean he is ADHD, just like this behavior in your dog does not mean it has SA. The "cures" for each are very different and could backfire if used to treat the wrong diagnosis. However, when you hear hoofbeats, look for horses, not zebras. It is FAR MORE LIKELY that your puppy is simply not well socialized (due to staying at the breeder's for far too long) and has hovering, worrisome owners, than a case of severe separation anxiety in a 4 month old puppy.

--Anney

 

[Joe Brakke]

Well, a lot of good input here. Try not to take it personal but you did ask the questions.

Get her into a good puppy OB class, this will help you out regardless of how many books you read. We all gained experience working dogs the same way.

Here is my simplified advice.

1) Read all these responses, if you get one good, oh I should try that, then you are ahead
2) Read your dog, sit back and really watch the suttle stuff, you learn more this way
3) Communication, during this hellish puppy stage, remember to praise good behavior
4) Teach here some basic commands, "quiet" for when she barks and "Leave It" to teach her right and wrong (things to chew etc..).
5) And for chewing, every week give her the Achilles Tendon from a cow, Moo Moo brand, pacifies that issue.

 

[ErinsEdge]

Get a femur bone, stuff it with peanut butter or cheese, put her in the crate, DON"T SAY A WORD, and go somewhere where you can't hear her. Don't coddle, don't say I'll be back... nothing. Go to the store-go for a walk. Repeat the next day for a little longer. Then start putting her in there so she doesn't follow you around. Do your obedience with her, take her as many places as you can and meet as many people as you can. In this case 2 weeks is not enough time for her to get in a routine, and by letting her have her way, you are just extending this period until she develops the pattern of getting her way. It is difficult to read many different methods but most of us have been there and this is what works. It's kind of like the child psychologists telling you to ignore all bad behavior and the child will learn what is good by praise well, it works in their theory, but not in real life (at least not in my life). Children and dogs need guidelines.

 

[Fowl Play WA]

Get a femur bone, stuff it with peanut butter or cheese, put her in the crate, DON"T SAY A WORD, and go somewhere where you can't hear her. Don't coddle, don't say I'll be back... nothing. Go to the store-go for a walk. Repeat the next day for a little longer. Then start putting her in there so she doesn't follow you around. Do your obedience with her, take her as many places as you can and meet as many people as you can. In this case 2 weeks is not enough time for her to get in a routine, and by letting her have her way, you are just extending this period until she develops the pattern of getting her way. It is difficult to read many different methods but most of us have been there and this is what works. It's kind of like the child psychologists telling you to ignore all bad behavior and the child will learn what is good by praise well, it works in their theory, but not in real life (at least not in my life). Children and dogs need guidelines.

Gunner is in love with his Kong because of the PB we put in there every night. He still goes goofy when we pull a PB jar out.

 

[1st retriever]

So you would have left your pup in a crate, trembling, howling and covered in vomit? Barking and spitting vomit out of the crate?

Welcome to the forum! I had purchased a GSD pup who was 3 months old, she lived on a farm and was not given the attention a puppy needs. When we put her in the crate for the ride home she screamed I mean just high pitched screaming for the hour ride home! I chalked it up to never being away from the farm and her mom and littermates. She got car sick all over herself and when we got home she was fine. She slept in a crate every night and did the screaming I mentioned earlier all night long. Never stopped. I knew I couldn't give in. I went through 3 weeks of that with her screaming every night all night long. When she was outside she would do anything to get to me. She would sit outside and scream as well. She went back to the breeder. I then purchased another GSD who was 5 months old from a different breeder. He didn't scream but he would jump any fence to not be in an enclosure. Where he came from was very unresponsible people who had 20 older pups and adults and a litter of 8 pups on the ground and 3 mutts in the house. They didn't know who was the father to any of the pups as I later found out. He chewed through a cable tie out to get out of the yard. After a few months he was turning into just as big of a freak as the female was and I had yet to receive his papers so I gave him to my uncle who lives on some land and he would not be enclosed. The reason I never got my paper on him was because they moved and left all of the dogs to fend for themselves! My point is lots of people have been through this and some more than others. I would give her a few more weeks with tough love and then if she didn't improve and it was my dog she would be returned to the breeder. I know that is hard to do trust me. But you can only put up with the screaming and barking for so long. If you can deal with it then more power to you but some are just not capable of getting over their issues. Good luck with her!

 

[Leddyman]

I vomit all the time my wife still won't let me out of the dang crate. If it don't hurt me it prolly won't hurt your pup.

If I am having problems with crating a puppy...like every pup I ever had. I put them in the crate and leave the house for a few hours. It is amazing how much they calm down after a few hours alone. I usually let them sleep in the bed with me. But I make the decision, I have the option.

I take them outside and air them out thoroughly, no pee or poop left in 'em. Then crate them up and SEE YA. I think I'm gonna hurl...try not to get any on the walls dude.

 

[jtfreeman]

or she was traumatized by her trip home and first night with usn

Obviously I don't know your pup, but I will offer that at 8 weeks of age mine was taken from his mother and crated for 15 hours (stupid MN snow storms!) while he travel from Nebraska to Georgia. He does now and has always loved his crate. My point being, and solely based on my single experience, is it probably takes more than 4 hours in a crate to traumatize a pup.

Jason

 

[Socks]

I'm a newbie huntin' dawg owner myself. I had a lab/rot mix before I got my lab and between the both of them I feel like I've tried to learn how to drink water from a fire hose for when it comes to training.

Ok, so here's my $0.02.
1) Step back and calm yourself. I'm not saying you're off the deep end. I'm saying take a step back and try to become objective. Breathe.
2) On discipline and such. I'm a very literal person (drives my wife nuts) so the training thing has been kind of hard for me to learn. The point of this is that being FIRM is not necessarily being harsh. You're the pack leader and don't take crap or give it. You're calm and assertive, but not angry or fretfull. The rules are the rules and that's the way it is. When you decide what you want, that's the way it is. Sounds like your pup is playing you. I agree with the time extension in the crate method, but that's me. By the way, my breeder and my trainer both say that JD plays me so you're not alone!
3) Dogs are friggin awsome at reading body language! I once gave the wrong cast to JD and he went the way I wanted anyways because he read me. So if you're nervous and tip toeing around because you have to leave your dog will pick up on this. This will contribute to the seperation problem. Your dog will get used to it over time. The problem is you can't speed up time.

I know it's hard, but it takes time and every dog is different. Good luck and the people on here know a lot, so take what they tell you and do what works for you and your pooch.

If I've told you things you already know sorry about that. Just sounds like your frustrated and I've been there too.

 

[RoscoeT]

Thanks to all who replied, your advice and experience are very valuable.

Just wanting to be clear, we are not caving or weak here. We were concerned because of information we read about the issue and started to question the methods of various books we had read.

This post came from us getting mixed messages from the "training community" and being confused as to how to proceed.

The problem has been that we have conflicting information from a number of sources and wanted some "real peoples" opinions on how to proceed.

Since writing the original post, we've managed to come a long way by following the suggestions of the posters here.

I have done some simple tests and am now convinced that it is not SA. The dog does have some anxiety issues but not nearly as sever as I thought originally.

My mentioning the possible "trauma" was not something I picked up out of thin air but based on an article about SA in dogs.

So the long and short of it is that the real problem here is so called "experts" were causing me to question what was the correct approach.

The pup is very smart and quick to learn. After a few days of crate conditioning we are well on our way to a normal situation.

Most importantly I have learned that in the world of dog training and breeding there are very little accepted 100% truths. Everything seems to be a debate as to what is better.

For those of you interested. Here are a couple of the many articles I mention that made me question if my "tough love" approach was doing more harm than good. For the record, a mix of the 2 seems to have solved the issue, for now.

http://www.dogflu.ca/04102007/11/tips_for_recognizing_and_treating_separation_anxiety_in_dogs

http://www.medhatspca.ca/separation-anxiety.htm

http://www.spca.bc.ca/animalbehaviour/anxiety.asp