Have you done walking fetch?

 

the way I do it there are quite a few steps between FTP and the T pattern. Walking fetch then force to a pile while backing up and that establishes your back pile for the T where pup is forced out to 100 yards. If you went from the table to the T pattern there will be lots of confusion. Teach in baby steps and you will see his confidence pick back up and his drive will come back.

 

Give way more freebies than ass whoopings.

 

Exactly what I was thinking..

Attitude is everything. How often are you using collar pressure vs. sends?

 

Don't worry about it... Not every dog is a fire breather on their force work. I've got one now with 2 master passes that can't stand blind work no matter how successful she has or how many "good girrrrrrrllllllll's" (said with a Midwest accent), she gets. Time will tell if she improves with lots of practice. She is just 2.

Some dogs hate yard work. It's just the way it is.....

Angie

 

We have done a little bit of walking fetch, not much. We have been doing force fetches out to about 70 yards gradually by lining up bumpers down a dirt road and forcing him to further and further bumpers. What can I do to make him sprint to the bumper ? He just jogs out , winds around a little before he picks the bumper up.

 

That's the way he is,,, Don't make a turnip into a orange... Why would you force a dog down a road anyway???

He's got the drill and he's bored.... Move on....

Angie

 

Mix up fun bumpers and have too 's. I am no expert but I always have a verbal "chatter " of okayokayokay ( I hear trainers use hey hey hey or huphup also but hup is something else for us...) while throwing fun bumpers then calmly give heel and stay before serious work. Id mix up the work and play a little bit.

 

I use a dirt road because there is very little cover and the straight path is suppose to orient him to the bumper and keep him straight.

 

Wrong answer,,,, You're inadvertently teaching him to take the path of least resistance. He has to learn to go where sent and not where it's easy to go. I'd tell ya to hook up with someone in Lubbock to help you out but there's no one there... Dang...

Straightness is taught later when the dog is handling. He really has no idea of the concept of straight yet.

Angie

 

im not as knowledgable as many on here but it just sounds like you are skipping around and not really being productive as a teacher when your dog is at a real learning point.

You said in the first post at the end that you were doing mini t. but in the thread name you say "blinds".
then you say you've been doing a lot of FTP lately? but also said you haven't done much walking fetch. I'm confused trying to figure it out myself. I'm sure the dog is too. Get all that squared away, figure out where the dog is and teach one thing at a time. and then move on.

Like Ms. Angie said, your dog may just NOT be a dog that's gonna burn it to a pile, blind, or anything other than a mark. Who cares? Most likely your just starting at this anyway. enjoy the slower dog on blinds that will be easier for a new handler to be able to work.

im training a 9 month old chocolate female for a friend right now, were just starting full T work. On marks she's crazy about it and runs as hard as she can. But on T work and all through FF leading into T work she jogs to each bumper. But by God she thinks about everything she does and does it right after being taught the right way. I dont care how fast she runs on the T pattern. She takes a back when i tell her to. she stops when i blow a whistle and she thinks through the cast i give her and takes it.

slow down, train the dog you have teach it right.

 

There ya go... I have nothing more to add...

Good luck and keep us posted.

Angie

 

redraider, I agree with all the advice given above. Will only add a couple of things:

1.I recently had a dog that was pokey on FTP. But when he got ready to go home, I worked him at a different place to demo for the owner and he was like another dog and sprinted out to the pile.

2.Count your blessings. Those firebreathers on blinds can get into trouble before you can even blow the whistle. I like a dog that runs slower on blinds. Then my old guy reaction times can stay in front of the dog.

Pattie Benton's dog, Ria, who just passed was a member of the 1500 pt club but she was slow on blinds. She was slow but didn't make mistakes. FC AFC Land Ahoy "Pirate" is also slow on blinds. But his reputation is that he can figure out very complicated setups. He was a finalist in this years National Amateur Field Trial Championship. And was the 2009 Open All Age high pt. dog.

Hope this helps.

 

Totally agree w/ the freebies to the pile. But also know that sooner or later the dawg has to be forced to the pile, and all the variations of stim ain't gonna' get ya' there...Find the right level that changes his behavior, and stick with what works...you don't need to overwhelm the dog with pressure, yet you DO need to force him there.
Would wonder how many no-goes you seen in FTP.

Respectfully, I'm not understanding why while you're still in FTP, and in the mini T at the same time, why you're running blinds before some of the fundamentals are all in place with some expectations?

Would believe you'd want your dog to understand that you are the only one who knows where the bird is, and if ya' can't handle him there to prove it, you're making things more difficult.

 

Someone please correct me if I am wrong, and I would not do it until I was beyond TT and actually teaching the pattern blind setup, but consider using real birds on the pattern blind when you get there.

My dog is a bit slow on blinds, at least compared to marks, but if he thinks there is a bird on the blind pile the difference disappears. Also, I wish he would go a bit slower on blinds, since he can get into trouble a lot faster than I can anticipate it and stop him. I am hoping that this gets better as I get more experience, but as Wayne said running a blind like their hair is on fire does have its own set of issues.

 

more info

After reading a few of the post and answers ( some are vary good ) I feel you should back up to FTP, start close with freebies change that fetch to back. When your dog is going in at a good pace ( close with the back command ) CC to the collar and move on from there by backing up. ( some change the pile location, I do not, I want the dog to know where the pile is at all times ) you should not start cold blinds until all your pattern work in done.

Some where when I am establishing the back pile I will add the Que DEAD. This is what I say Que with dead, drop my hand Waite and send with back.

 

When your dog is going in at a good pace ( close with the back command ) CC to the collar and move on from there by backing up.

OMG!.. sure hope this dog has looong been CC'd before now!

 

First off, understand that I don't know what method/program the OP is using in the training of this dog. I have never seen a program like that which has been described. Second, not all methods/programs are compatible, so this may or may not help the OP. I am not suggesting that you abandon the program you follow, just offering this up for thought...

In the program I follow (Lardy's TRT),

• the dog should have completed stick fetch and collar fetch
• the dog should have completed simple casting (mini T)
• the dog should be going to the pile with good momentum (will vary by dog as not all are fire breathers) before any force is applied.
• stick pressure is then added
• collar pressure is then added

The pressure is applied during a few sessions only, and primarily from a front finish position. It is not something to dwell on day after day.

Stick on a send as the dog is starting to turn and the dog should be trying to scoot out of there to beat the stick just as he did in stick fetch. Sticking the ground behind the dog can be as effective in delivering the message as is actually hitting the dog.

Nick on a send as the dog is starting to turn and the dog should be trying to scoot out of there to beat the nick just as he did in collar fetch.

Always give plenty of freebies between episodes of pressure.

The pressure should increase the dog's compulsion to go. The dog should go straight on the next send after being forced. No hesitation or flaring the spot where the force occurred.

Force a few times from front finish, a few times from the side, and a couple times in route. That's it.

If you are forcing the dog before laying a proper foundation, it will lead to confusion, a poor attitude, and sluggish response.

You would be wise to find a new area to do/finish ftp so the dog hets a fresh start and has no lingering issues with the old area.

 

When first starting out,, It is surprising how much better response and attitude you will see, if the pile is close.

Work to distance gradually.

Also, I have been shown what the freebees are for. they are not just to send the dog without force,, but most importantly , a way you can Guage what the force that was applied on the previous send got you. If the dog responds with good speed and desire,, THATS when a very positive praise comes into practice.
Run the freebees with that good attitude for a bit. As soon as you see a drop in response,, then Force again.

I force as the dog goes from a remote send, force at mid point to pile, and force again right at the pile. Not all on the same send, or same day. work gradual.

I was also shown to send on verbal only no hand cast.

If someone SHOWS you what you are looking for,, its quite a bit different that what you get watching a DVD (at least for me it is)

Wayne and Captn Jack has it right though,, there are many important PREVIOUS steps that must be trained BEFORE you FORCE to a Pile.
I dont want to say just how long we worked FF and Stick fetch and walking fetch. It took a LONG time..
Gooser

 

To the more experienced.

How important do you think it is when doing these drill type steps for you to understand that you might run out of dog in a session,,, and its time to quit for the day?
Gooser

 

It is critical.

 

To the op: Without seeing your dog none of us really knows what is going on. But frankly, I don't see a lack drive if he loves his marks as you say. I see a lack of confidence. I am basing this totally on my experience with my two labs. The first one was such an over the top fire breather that I never even really got the chance to "train" him as he took off in any direction at the drop of word, and I could never, ever whistle fast enough to make meaningful corrections. He just did not give a hoot about doing anything to please me and did not worry about getting it right, therefore he was still a screamin' meanie on blinds as well as marks. Dog number two has had great drive and desire for marks since day one. Difference is, he works with me. So when we started the drills, pile work, TT, etc. he slowed WAAAYYY down. He never wanted to make a mistake. I almost ruined him by misunderstanding this, and using too much ftp. I had to stop for over a month and then start back slowly. Now that he is really learning, and gaining confidence, he is zooming almost as fast to the pile and pattern blinds as his marks. Once again, its all, "READ YOUR DOG". Not easy when you have only worked with one. Every new dog will show you something new, don't care what program you follow.

 

redraider, I should have asked this long ago. Which program are you following? Then again, you have posted before and maybe you told us. But if so I have forgotten. Pls tell me again.

 

redraider, OK I looked at some of your previous posts and it appears you are following Smartworks.

 

In which case you can feel free to contact me directly at rushcreekpress@aol.com . Glad to help.

Evan

 

Thanks for so many replies. Let me rephrase what I have been doing.

He is steady on marks, delivers to hand well, and has obviously been through CC.

I have been following Evan's program. I have been through the following

Ear pinch, transition to collar pressure. Walking fetch and fetch-no fetch. I have done FTP in the yard (very short distances) and extended FTP out. I have done three handed casting in the yard. I have transitioned to what I consider mini T. I have been setting bumpers out to about 50-60 yards from 'home base' to 'second base'. Not sure if this distance would be considered "mini T" or "full T". How far out (yards) do I need to work him out to for Full T work? How far off the sides are 1st and 3rd base? Also, he is suppose to be able to see the bumper piles right? Do I let him watch me drop the bumpers (I have been).

This is the stage we are currently at. When I refer to 'blinds', I guess i am using the wrong term. By that I just mean a bumper that he does not see me throw. (ex. back bumper pile on T work).

The problem I was concerned about was him not driving hard to the back pile. I have changed up my training a little bit and he is doing better. I started doing shorter sessions and tried to get him out of the heat. I think this is what the problem is for the most part, because he has much more drive to the piles now (espcially at the beginning of the sessions).

This should adress most of the issues I saw in the replies.

 

I have been following Evan's program. I have been through the following

...I have transitioned to what I consider mini T. I have been setting bumpers out to about 50-60 yards from 'home base' to 'second base'. Not sure if this distance would be considered "mini T" or "full T".

What materials are you following? No part of T work involves those distances in the Smartwork system. Mini-T is measure in feet, not yards, and it's performed on a rope just like you should have used in 3-handed casting. Mini-T is the same drill in the same place, only the dog now leaves from your side to stop and cast. Sound familiar?

Evan

 

That sounds familiar. We started that and have worked our distances out.

 

Okay. Are you following the book Smartwork volume one, or the Basic Handling DVD, or both?

Don't bow out, Truthseeker. I think your comments show good dog sense.

Evan

 

How often do you use real birds in your training? (not in ftp but useing them with marks) more balanced training helped mine speed up big time. All work and no fun(birds) made my pup slow down just a thought.