[Zach Fisher]

Sorry for the dumb question, but to clarify, are you sending the dog from your side toward the center pile every time, stopping him, then casting ?

Nope. Initially the dog is sitting, facing you. You let him see you drop the bumpers at the three piles. You cast the dog from a front-face.
Then, once the dog has mastered this (usually in a day or three) you start lining him to the piles from your side. Line up in the middle and we usually start at one end and work to the other.

 

[Wayne Nutt]

http://www.retrievertraining.net/fo...wthread.php?84174-Hank-(by-Pirate)-8-hand-casting-ph-2&highlight=handed+casting

YOu don't need great distances to teach this drill. After the dogs have learned (by repetition), I would move out another five yard or so.

 

[DL]

Nope. Initially the dog is sitting, facing you. You let him see you drop the bumpers at the three piles. You cast the dog from a front-face.
Then, once the dog has mastered this (usually in a day or three) you start lining him to the piles from your side. Line up in the middle and we usually start at one end and work to the other.

Here is my crazy way of doing it. I started at 25 yards from the three piles after I identified them, and only did side sends. I start with the middle one and then do the the two on the side. If he didn't make any mistakes, the next day I backed up. If he went to the wrong bumper, I stopped and casted to the correct one. If he did it without needing to be stopped I backed up again on the next day. As long as he didn't need to be stopped more than once in a row I stayed at the same distance. If it was perfect I moved back. If I stopped him more than once in a row I moved up the next day. I never had to intentially stop him that way.

 

[Zach Fisher]

I was mostly referring to cowdoc asking if the dog was lined to the center pile and then cast to the outside pile.

If the dog has a firm grasp on the basic casts you could skip the front-face portion, but it doesn't hurt anything.

 

[CMB]

Great info Zach! thanks

 

[steve schreiner]

I did a drill this morning where you have a half wagon wheel, (back pile, Angle R angle L and a left over and right over.)I had the dog sit in the center of the wagon wheel and I gradually backed up as the drill went on. I was having trouble with him not taking my cast correctly at a distance. needless to say he did not perform like he should for a dog that knows how to take a cast usually.

I think my solution will be to put white stakes out at each pile to give him a visual as to where the pile is. this morning he would give me a right angle and then take of to the over or back pile since he did not see anything towards the right angle.

The only issue with using white stakes is that it becomes too easy for him, he sees the white pole runs directly to it and that's it. Remove the poles and he starts second guessing if he is going in the right direction. how can I simplify this between the white stake drill and the pile with no marker?

I finally just broke down and did T pattern and even then he took an over on a Right back which I have never seen him do. Thoughts?

THOUGHTS ...
Why back up ..? That drill is used to ingrain a certain behavior in the dog when given a cast...If you tried something and it didn't work out ..the dog is telling you that you haven't given it enough reps to fully ingrain the behavior....Your dog gave you some more info when you tried the T drill again...Dogs don't lie...Remove the poles and teach the dog the correct behavior...No silver bullets in dog training ...just lots of reps and then more reps ....it is just obedience ......Steve S

 

[captainjack]

CaptainJack,
You can really get some good work out of any dog with this. 12 yards (laterally) on a 200 yard blind is not much, so the precision demands are higher.

If the dog was good, which the op said he was, you have now introduced a problem where one did not exist before he did the drill.

I only problem solve (which is what I use wagon wheel casting drill for), when I have a problem.

My dogs generally run great AA blinds. I'd bet that not all would do well if I tried to do this drill. Something to think about.

 

[Bryan Parks]

my thoughts are that your last sentence tells you something..

MY OPINION.... I would NOT expect a dog to be ready for the Handling wagon wheel, (even only half of it) till the dog has MASTERED the T and TT.. The dogs work should be solid before moving on..

That's what I was thinking but what do I know............

 

[22899]

I did a drill this morning where you have a half wagon wheel, (back pile, Angle R angle L and a left over and right over.)I had the dog sit in the center of the wagon wheel and I gradually backed up as the drill went on. I was having trouble with him not taking my cast correctly at a distance. needless to say he did not perform like he should for a dog that knows how to take a cast usually.

I think my solution will be to put white stakes out at each pile to give him a visual as to where the pile is. this morning he would give me a right angle and then take of to the over or back pile since he did not see anything towards the right angle.

The only issue with using white stakes is that it becomes too easy for him, he sees the white pole runs directly to it and that's it. Remove the poles and he starts second guessing if he is going in the right direction. how can I simplify this between the white stake drill and the pile with no marker?

I finally just broke down and did T pattern and even then he took an over on a Right back which I have never seen him do. Thoughts?

View attachment 33370 View attachment 33378


Notice the sequence used in the handling WW..

I would think it only fair,,and easier on the dog,, if it was VERY competant with the T and the TT before running the handling drill aka Handling Wagon Wheel

What do you consider the purpose of all these drills... I consider it a Prep to start Cold blinds..


http://www.dannyfarmer.com/dannyfar.../dannyfarmer.com/Training_Tips_files/Starting Cold Blinds by Danny Farmer_1.pdf

 

[22899]

After they have Mastered the T and the TT , you can easily teach the angle back casts on that TT set up, by moving up to the far intersection point of the overs,sit the dog facing you, and throw a angle back bumper to the left, give a left angle back cast. repeat for the right...

You can do the same thing with the angle "IN's,by moving back to the close intersection of the overs TT,,, have the dog sit facing you at the long over intersection...

 

[captainjack]

I'll take one last go at this for any lurkers trying to pick up some free advice.

Once your dog is in advanced training (i.e. Running cold blinds), many of the drills you did in basics and transition run contrary to what the dog knows. Taking a straight back for example. An advanced dog should never go straight back (if straight back is the literal cast, then you should not have stopped the dog). To an advance dog a straight up right or left cast should get a few degrees of direction change. In fact, in training you should probably not be blowing the whistle until you really need a change in direction. Let the dog roll a bit and get confident in where he's going. Will lead to a more stylish blind that over handling and may mean that after blowing the whistle, you'll need to work a bit harder in training to get the direction change (which will pay dividends on test day). So I would say most of us should worry less about the bird or line to it and more about getting your dog to reliably change direction in the face of factors. This is best achieved by running real blinds, preferably in sets of 3 or more.

Save the drills for initial teaching and then problem solving.

 

[Windjammer]

I sense a bit of Mike Lardy's methods in your training. I agree that "An advanced dog should never go straight back (if straight back is the literal cast, then you should not have stopped the dog). To an advance dog a straight up right or left cast should get a few degrees of direction change..." The diagram he uses in TRT showcases this point very well.

 

[BJGatley]

I'll take one last go at this for any lurkers trying to pick up some free advice.

Once your dog is in advanced training (i.e. Running cold blinds), many of the drills you did in basics and transition run contrary to what the dog knows. Taking a straight back for example. An advanced dog should never go straight back (if straight back is the literal cast, then you should not have stopped the dog). To an advance dog a straight up right or left cast should get a few degrees of direction change. In fact, in training you should probably not be blowing the whistle until you really need a change in direction. Let the dog roll a bit and get confident in where he's going. Will lead to a more stylish blind that over handling and may mean that after blowing the whistle, you'll need to work a bit harder in training to get the direction change (which will pay dividends on test day). So I would say most of us should worry less about the bird or line to it and more about getting your dog to reliably change direction in the face of factors. This is best achieved by running real blinds, preferably in sets of 3 or more.

Save the drills for initial teaching and then problem solving.

Free advice... then why in the hell are we here.. you surprise me sometimes...
If we don't give advice, then our sport will die and you with it...

 

[bamajeff]

I sense a bit of Mike Lardy's methods in your training. I agree that "An advanced dog should never go straight back (if straight back is the literal cast, then you should not have stopped the dog). To an advance dog a straight up right or left cast should get a few degrees of direction change..." The diagram he uses in TRT showcases this point very well.

If your dog runs blinds at 100 MPH, they will loop a little when they sit . Sometimes you end up needing a straight back.

 

[captainjack]

If your dog runs blinds at 100 MPH, they will loop a little when they sit . Sometimes you end up needing a straight back.

Then you need to be working on loopy sits and not casting.

 

[BJGatley]

I did a drill this morning where you have a half wagon wheel, (back pile, Angle R angle L and a left over and right over.)I had the dog sit in the center of the wagon wheel and I gradually backed up as the drill went on. I was having trouble with him not taking my cast correctly at a distance. needless to say he did not perform like he should for a dog that knows how to take a cast usually.

I think my solution will be to put white stakes out at each pile to give him a visual as to where the pile is. this morning he would give me a right angle and then take of to the over or back pile since he did not see anything towards the right angle.

The only issue with using white stakes is that it becomes too easy for him, he sees the white pole runs directly to it and that's it. Remove the poles and he starts second guessing if he is going in the right direction. how can I simplify this between the white stake drill and the pile with no marker?

I finally just broke down and did T pattern and even then he took an over on a Right back which I have never seen him do. Thoughts?

Don't make a mole out of a ant hill....Let your dog understand you in the most simplistic terms...

 

[steve schreiner]

I'll take one last go at this for any lurkers trying to pick up some free advice.

Once your dog is in advanced training (i.e. Running cold blinds), many of the drills you did in basics and transition run contrary to what the dog knows. Taking a straight back for example. An advanced dog should never go straight back (if straight back is the literal cast, then you should not have stopped the dog). To an advance dog a straight up right or left cast should get a few degrees of direction change. In fact, in training you should probably not be blowing the whistle until you really need a change in direction. Let the dog roll a bit and get confident in where he's going. Will lead to a more stylish blind that over handling and may mean that after blowing the whistle, you'll need to work a bit harder in training to get the direction change (which will pay dividends on test day). So I would say most of us should worry less about the bird or line to it and more about getting your dog to reliably change direction in the face of factors. This is best achieved by running real blinds, preferably in sets of 3 or more.

Save the drills for initial teaching and then problem solving.

What if your dog had been off to one side and you gave a cast and the dog is now on line ,but not headed to the blind,but if not stopped the dog will cross the line and need another angle back cast...Most people do not stop the dog if it is on line going at the blind..Do you suggest a zig zag path or put the dog on line and try to keep it as close as possible...?That would mean using r&l straight up back cast...Steve S

 

[BJGatley]

What if your dog had been off to one side and you gave a cast and the dog is now on line ,but not headed to the blind,but if not stopped the dog will cross the line and need another angle back cast...Most people do not stop the dog if it is on line going at the blind..Do you suggest a zig zag path or put the dog on line and try to keep it as close as possible...?That would mean using r&l straight up back cast...Steve S

LOL..If we did our homework and have a understanding on the content...think about it...who wants surprises....

 

[captainjack]

What if your dog had been off to one side and you gave a cast and the dog is now on line ,but not headed to the blind,but if not stopped the dog will cross the line and need another angle back cast...Most people do not stop the dog if it is on line going at the blind..Do you suggest a zig zag path or put the dog on line and try to keep it as close as possible...?That would mean using r&l straight up back cast...Steve S

In training, I've come to the point where I'll let the dog roll more (get more offline), then try to get the change in direction. Now I am conscious about the dog giving in to factors, so will correct their line when I read that. But if the dog is running straight, but off line, I'll probably let them role a bit before casting.

In a trial, yes, I do suggest somewhat of a zig zag path. If the dog took the literal cast that you gave on the first cast, he theoretically wouldn't cross the line but rather end up at the bird. So it depends on why I thought the dog took too much cast as to what I'd do. If the dog was just taking more than I was giving on that day (some dogs give more cast the more times they're cast), I wouldn't stop them on line because I'd expect the dog to over cast again and still have the zig zag, but everything off to one side.

Whether or not we are good enough on a given day will depend on whether the judge likes what I like (assuming my dog cooperates). I like smooth, stylish blinds over ticky-tac keep em dead on line jobs, so I try to run them smoothly. If my dog is overcasting (even though I give straight up lefts and rights), it behooves me to let the dog get a little further off line before stopping them or the blind will appear much choppier.

Edit: straight up right or left from me, means a few degrees right or left to my dogs.

 

[Bryan Parks]

What if your dog had been off to one side and you gave a cast and the dog is now on line ,but not headed to the blind,but if not stopped the dog will cross the line and need another angle back cast...Most people do not stop the dog if it is on line going at the blind..Do you suggest a zig zag path or put the dog on line and try to keep it as close as possible...?That would mean using r&l straight up back cast...Steve S

Just asking. How can your dog cross the line to the blind if he is on line to the blind? If he is going to cross the line wouldn't you just wait to stop him until you believe your cast will put him on line to the blind?